Compression

[JGC403]

What compression ratio is everyone running with none force induction engines? Cast iron or aluminum cylinder heads? And what displacement engine, 318, 360, 390, or 408? Last what octane fuel are you using?

[5.9_Racer]

last engine 10.6:1 (blew engine from being tooo lean) 10psi max
this engine 9.3:1 (so far so good!) 10psi max

Both on Meth injection
Eddy heads

408cu in

[JGC403]

So you had an effective compression of 17.8:1 with the first engine. Pump gas? On the new one effective ratio of 15.6:1. That is impressive if you are running pump gas.

I want to push the limit for compression and timing on my next build. And still run pump gas. So I want to know how high a compression other people are running.

I have an idea to help combat detonation, that I am going to post in another thread.

[Z88Z]

Jon you're talking NA right, not sc'd?

The guy with the 11 second Jeep built by KRC - (Dave something I think)

I think I recall reading somewhere that was an NA build running like 13:1 CR or so!!

No idea if he was on pump gas at that CR but I kinda doubt it

[RINGWRAITH]

Originally Posted by JGC403

So you had an effective compression of 17.8:1 with the first engine. Pump gas? On the new one effective ratio of 15.6:1. That is impressive if you are running pump gas.

I want to push the limit for compression and timing on my next build. And still run pump gas. So I want to know how high a compression other people are running.

I have an idea to help combat detonation, that I am going to post in another thread.

search....squish......

[JGC403]

Originally Posted by RINGWRAITH

search....squish......

I guess your talkin about squish inside the combustion chamber? As the piston approaches TDC on the compression stroke, the Air/Fuel mixture at the outer radius of the cylinder is forced inward.

Dished pistons create a little bit of squish.

[scjeep4.7HO]

Stock 4.7HO.
9.73:1 comp ratio
Paxton NOVI 1000
8-16# of boost during it's life
212X cams
72mm F&B throttle body

Built 4.7
8:1 comp ratio Forged Ross ceramic coated racing pistons
H bean billet rods
1st set of race prepped ported big valve 4.7 heads.
212X cams (for now)
72mm F&B throttle body
Paxton NOVI 2000 (boost level not finallized yet) 25# at the track
one of a kind 4.7 sheet metal intake
Modified super low profile Edelbrock intake elbow.
Turbosmart race port BOV

[5.9_Racer]

my trick for combating lean conditions/timing is the mallory 685 w/2-BAR Map sensor for digital boost timing retard in addition to using dual walbro 255's in the tank and -6AN fuel lines on a full return system.... AND... having METH AND a Air to Water Intercooler on board to keep the air nice and chilly.

[Wrinklechops]

E85 would be awesome for high compression builds. Forced Induction sees way more benefit from it than NA, but a local tuning shop here in Colorado got a Pontiac GTO to 550hp at the rear wheels on a motor build and E85, no turbos or supercharger. That's pretty impressive given our 5800ft+ elevation too

E85 = 105oct pump gas for less than 85/87oct - If you have it available to you in your area, it's worth it.

EDIT: Forgot to add, no ignition timing changes are required for a gasoline engine running on E85, but the timings can be pre-poned significantly in order to make use of the higher octane rate of E85 and boost the power output of the engine.

[SERB Z06]

E85 is not worth it on an NA set up, this has been shown time and time again by many tuners across the US.

10 whp is not worth the 30% hit on your fuel mileage.

Also E85 is not cheaper than 91+ octane, it's actually more expensive by a significant amount.

E85 is great for boosted cars who want to make big power but don't want to fork out for race gas. NA it's a huge waste of money and not worth the hassle of trying to find an E85 pump.

[RINGWRAITH]

never seen an e85 pump....is it green?

[Wrinklechops]

Originally Posted by SERB Z06

E85 is not worth it on an NA set up, this has been shown time and time again by many tuners across the US.

10 whp is not worth the 30% hit on your fuel mileage.

Also E85 is not cheaper than 91+ octane, it's actually more expensive by a significant amount.

E85 is great for boosted cars who want to make big power but don't want to fork out for race gas. NA it's a huge waste of money and not worth the hassle of trying to find an E85 pump.

This Honda guy dyno tested 93oct vs E85 and made almost a 30whp and 30wtq gain in power.

Mac Autosport (locally) made 550whp on a GTO tuned on E85. Impressive for Colorado altitude.

E85 is cheap! Have you seen average US prices for E85? Or even in Colorado, check out: http://e85prices.com/colorado.html

Average gas price: $2.62
Average E85 price: $2.17

So even with the mpg drop, I'd say the prices might even out in the end. And the mpg drop really depends on a lot of things, especially your tune and how often you floor it, as well as the time of year because in the winter E85 becomes an E70 blend. If you're tuned for one and running the other, you're going to see a drop in performance and mpg I'm sure.

E85 stations are ALL OVER the Denver area, so we are lucky Other people have to drive 2+ hours to the nearest one. E85 pumps are popping up all over the place in Denver. Just check the listing for E85 locations on the E85 website.

In the end though, yes E85 isn't as good for NA engines as it is for boosted engines. Unless you're running high compression... and that is all I was trying to say. That Honda guy had a 12:5:1 compression I think. If we could get that high NA on our 360 engines it might be worth it to look into.

Originally Posted by RINGWRAITH

never seen an e85 pump....is it green?

It's yellow. Corn fed baby!

[SERB Z06]

Originally Posted by Wrinklechops

This Honda guy dyno tested 93oct vs E85 and made almost a 30whp and 30wtq gain in power.

Mac Autosport (locally) made 550whp on a GTO tuned on E85. Impressive for Colorado altitude.

E85 is cheap! Have you seen average US prices for E85? Or even in Colorado, check out: http://e85prices.com/colorado.html

Average gas price: $2.62
Average E85 price: $2.17

So even with the mpg drop, I'd say the prices might even out in the end. And the mpg drop really depends on a lot of things, especially your tune and how often you floor it, as well as the time of year because in the winter E85 becomes an E70 blend. If you're tuned for one and running the other, you're going to see a drop in performance and mpg I'm sure.

E85 stations are ALL OVER the Denver area, so we are lucky Other people have to drive 2+ hours to the nearest one. E85 pumps are popping up all over the place in Denver. Just check the listing for E85 locations on the E85 website.

In the end though, yes E85 isn't as good for NA engines as it is for boosted engines. Unless you're running high compression... and that is all I was trying to say. That Honda guy had a 12:5:1 compression I think. If we could get that high NA on our 360 engines it might be worth it to look into.



It's yellow. Corn fed baby!


[

Hah!

That dip in his dyno graph shows me that his tuner has no clue what he is doing. The dip means his VTEC crossover is set too low. 30 whp from 93 to E85, on a 4 cylinder? If you believe that than I got an electric supercharger from ebay to sell you.


If you keep reading the thread you see someone else say the average gain they see on E85 3-5% power. 5% of 250 hp is 12.5 hp...whoop de ****ing do, you won't even feel that. Also, if you keep reading, you will see another guy posted that he went from 91 octane to E85 and picked up 9whp...HOLY SHIT 9WHP, STOP THE PRESSES

If you read this thread:
http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread...&highlight=e85

You will see 1 person say they picked up around 10 whp, and the other say they make 3-5% more power via EXTREME TIMING.

The reason E85 it works so well on boosted cars is because when you compress air, it gets VERY hot, the ethanol comes in and cools everything down, and now you can run more timing because you aren't as worried about super high EGTs and detonation. On an NA motor, this is not the case.

Here is another reason why E85 is a bad idea. So it's summer and you have this badass E85 tune. Well what do you do in the winter when that E85 becomes E70? So now you have super jacked timing and you are dumping all this fuel into your engine, but the octane isn't there anymore, and there is too much gasoline (which is WAY more efficient than alcohol) in your mix now so you are running extremely rich, and now your poor rings are at risk of being washed out. Which leads us to another problem, you will never know the consistency of the E85 blend, is it 85% ethanol, or is it 80%? Or is it 70? You can't look at your wideband because AFRs are completely different than gasoline and now you have t rely on lambda readings, 99% of people have no clue what 0.85 lambda means and most widebands don't even display lambda...so now you are driving around in the cold weather months like an asshole wondering if you are running too rich or not, and how good of quality your gas is....AWESOME.

Conclusion:
E85 is an awesome alternative to race gas if you own a boosted vehicle and are on a budget. Race gas is still much better in every way imaginable except cost.

On an NA setup, it's a complete waste of money. Is going from 13 mpg to 10 mpg on a 5.9 worth 10 whp? I sure as hell don't think so, not to mention you lose the ability to drive across the country if you are so inclined because E85 is a total pain in the ass the find, especially when you get out of the midwest and go towards the coast, where the majority of the people in the US (and coincidentally all the fastest cars are).

[SERB Z06]

I'm going to take some time to address the fact that people can not do elementary school math here too:

Average gas price: $2.62
Average E85 price: $2.17

It is a fact that E85 causes on average 30% less MPG. $2.17 * 1.3 = $2.821

This means that the price of E85 is essentially 20 cents more than the average price of gasoline. Even if we assume that your MPG go down by only 20%, that means that it gets put almost dead even at the price of gasoline.

I don't know about you guys, but I get about 250 or so miles on a tank with my 5.9 in normal driving (mixed highway/city). If I take 30% away from that, now I am only getting 175 miles per tank. This is completely impractical.

[SERB Z06]

Taken from http://www.cga.ct.gov/2006/rpt/2006-R-0524.htm

Ethanol is not easily transported through fuel pipelines because it absorbs both water, which may remove some of the ethanol, and impurities, which can harm motor vehicle engines. Ethanol also is corrosive and may damage the pipeline itself. Ethanol therefore must be shipped to terminals by truck, barge or train before it is blended with gasoline.

According to the U. S. Department of Energy, care must also be taken in handling and dispensing E85. Ethanol is not compatible with aluminum, and all aluminum products must be removed from a gasoline dispensing system that will be used to dispense E85.

There also are some restrictions on how E85 must be stored. For more information, see the U. S. Department of Energy's Handbook for Handling, Storing and Dispensing E85 (attached).

[Wrinklechops]

Originally Posted by SERB Z06

The reason E85 it works so well on boosted cars is because when you compress air, it gets VERY hot, the ethanol comes in and cools everything down, and now you can run more timing because you aren't as worried about super high EGTs and detonation. On an NA motor, this is not the case.

Found this thread over at ... just tryin to show an engine with high enough compression normally aspirated can take advantage of E85. I come from a world of Subaru WRXs/STi's and Evo's that rage over E85 benefiting them, especially here in Colorado but of course that was a turbo world.

Dyno results, high compression and E85!
The Dyno results are in! Just got back home and was very pleased.

Best with Old completely stock engine and a Vortech supercharger was 474 / 431 SAE on E85

New numbers with only a change to HIGH compression 10.7:1 and Comp Cams still on E85 Ethanol: 517 / 478 SAE
(If you prefer STD correction numbers, it's 528 / 488)

Soo... at peak it was about 45 hp gained, and about 47 ft/lbs torque.

It was an even bigger gain at 5700 where it has a max of 68 hp and 62 tq gained!

For those of you that don't know, I just rebuilt my first engine from scratch so I could raise compression ratio to take advantage of the 105 octane E85.

Looks like my bone stock heads and intake are limiting the airflow a bit. I knew they would but I didn't have time to wait on new heads to arrive. Those will come later this year.

Just goes to show that high compression and E85 work well together when you have a trustworthy tuner. Thanks Pro-Dyno!!
__________________
'99 Mustang GT, Vortech Supercharged exclusively on E85.

10:1 CR for the ethanol, Fox Lake stage 2 heads, Comp cams and a few other goodies.
640 rwhp
10.52 at 135 mph

www.e85mustangs.com

Originally Posted by SERB Z06

Here is another reason why E85 is a bad idea. So it's summer and you have this badass E85 tune. Well what do you do in the winter when that E85 becomes E70? So now you have super jacked timing and you are dumping all this fuel into your engine, but the octane isn't there anymore, and there is too much gasoline (which is WAY more efficient than alcohol) in your mix now so you are running extremely rich, and now your poor rings are at risk of being washed out. Which leads us to another problem, you will never know the consistency of the E85 blend, is it 85% ethanol, or is it 80%? Or is it 70? You can't look at your wideband because AFRs are completely different than gasoline and now you have t rely on lambda readings, 99% of people have no clue what 0.85 lambda means and most widebands don't even display lambda...so now you are driving around in the cold weather months like an asshole wondering if you are running too rich or not, and how good of quality your gas is....AWESOME.

Get two tunes. Or three.

To get an accurate AFR reading you need to switch the meter to Lambda or equivalence ratio setting rather than AFR. Most O2 sensors assume you are running gasoline and will report a stoichiometric mixture as 14.7:1 which is the proper value for gasoline. E85 has a Stoichiometric mixture of between 9.7 - 10:1 and a max power mixture of about 6.98-8.5:1 or so, where with gasoline it is 12.5:1-to 13.1.

If you must use an O2 sensor that only reports gasoline AFR information simply divide the numbers it reports by 1.47 - 1.50.

On gasoline, my ECU is supposed to give a mixture of 11.5:1 and on 100% E85 the dyno's wide band reported an AFR of 11.6:1. That means that my true AFR on the E85 was about 7.8:1 which is right in the middle of max power mixtures for E85.

It's really not any worse than the crap regular gas blend you get in winter anyways. So what if you're tuned for a healthy tank of 91/93oct, and then you get a shitty blend in the winter months? You face the same challenges with regular gas as you are criticizing E85 for. It's the risk you take when you get a professional dyno tune. I know many guys who got tuned on a bad tank of gas, or had their MAF sensors dirty. Your tuner isn't God, he can only do so much with what you bring him.

E85 fuel blends change content seasonally just like all gasolines blends change with the seasons. This seasonal change in blend for E85 is primarily to improve cold weather starting, where the changes in gasoline during cold weather is to improve cold weather starting. In the summer months, gasoline must be blended to reduce vapor lock and to reduce evaporative emissions.

The recommended dates for changing E85 fuel blends are listed in a chart in the E85 handbook on page 22, which is in the "E85 Fuel Specification" tab.
The Volatility class specifications are broken down on page 10.

Volatility class 1 --- minimum ethanol 79%
Volatility class 2 --- minimum ethanol 74%
Volatility class 3 --- minimum ethanol 70%


http://www.e85fuel.com/pdf/ethanol_guidebook.pdf

As you can see each region has a different start date and recommendation for seasonal blends depending on local weather climate.

Here on the high plains east of the rockies in Colorado we run the class 1 fuel blend from mid June -- mid Sept, run class 2 fuel from mid Sept -- mid Oct and run the class 3 fuel blend from Mid Oct -- mid April, then back to the class 2 blend from mid April to mid June. The standard only specifies a minimum ethanol content, vendors can run higher ethanol content if it is economical. If it is cheaper for the fuel blender to add more he can. Ethanol content is bottom line driven by local weather conditions, and cold starting problems for local drivers just a gasoline blends are modified to give easier starting in cold weather.

In the Southern part of Texas they would never go to a class 3 blend, and in Wisconsin, they would only have the class 1 blend for about 2 months in the summer. In Florida they would be on class 1 almost all year long and in North Dakota and Wyoming and Montana, they would be on class 3 almost all year long.

Originally Posted by SERB Z06

Conclusion:
E85 is an awesome alternative to race gas if you own a boosted vehicle and are on a budget. Race gas is still much better in every way imaginable except cost.

On an NA setup, it's a complete waste of money. Is going from 13 mpg to 10 mpg on a 5.9 worth 10 whp? I sure as hell don't think so, not to mention you lose the ability to drive across the country if you are so inclined because E85 is a total pain in the ass the find, especially when you get out of the midwest and go towards the coast, where the majority of the people in the US (and coincidentally all the fastest cars are).

I'm not saying our engines could ever hope to benefit from E85 because our CR is what, 8 or 9:5:1 stock or something? Ridiculously low. This thread is about COMPRESSION, so I only mentioned that a higher compression engine, normally aspirated, could benefit from E85. Most people reading this probably don't even know half the stuff about E85 that you or I do.

Originally Posted by SERB Z06

I'm going to take some time to address the fact that people can not do elementary school math here too:

Average gas price: $2.62
Average E85 price: $2.17

It is a fact that E85 causes on average 30% less MPG. $2.17 * 1.3 = $2.821

This means that the price of E85 is essentially 20 cents more than the average price of gasoline. Even if we assume that your MPG go down by only 20%, that means that it gets put almost dead even at the price of gasoline.

I don't know about you guys, but I get about 250 or so miles on a tank with my 5.9 in normal driving (mixed highway/city). If I take 30% away from that, now I am only getting 175 miles per tank. This is completely impractical.

Many sources make a big deal about E85 having less thermal energy per gallon that a gallon of gas. They frequently draw the false conclusion that you cannot make more power on E85 than you can on gasoline. E85 actually has a higher specific energy at stoichiometric fuel air mixtures than gasoline, and at proper max power mixtures releases more thermal energy in the cylinder for a given amount of air to burn. Since an internal combustion engines power output is primarily air supply limited this means you can make 5% to nearly 30% more power on E85 than you can on gasoline.

Current experience shows turbocharged cars like the WRX and DSM families can run upwards of 30 psi boost on E85 tunes without knock. The only case I know of where knock was logged was on a 500+ whp DSM running 35-39 psi boost!

Ethanol specific energy at stoichiometric fuel air mixtures is actually higher than gasoline allowing a higher release of energy per lb of air burned than gasoline.

Typical gasoline Thermal energy 19,000 BTU/lb max power fuel air mixture 12.5:1
Typical E85 Thermal energy 13,475 BTU/lb max power fuel air mixture 6.975:1
Typical ethanol Thermal energy 12,500 BTU/lb 6.429:1

If you are consuming 100 lbs of air, lets see how much fuel energy you release for each of these fuels using gasoline as the base 100% reference.
100/12.5 = 8 lbs of gasoline @ 19,000 BTU/lb = 152,000 BTU = 100%
100/6.975 = 14.337 lbs of E85 @ 13,475 BTU/lb = 193,189.9 BTU = 127% more heat energy
100/6.429 = 15.555 lbs of Ethanol @ 12,500 BTU/lb = 194431.5 BTU = 128.9% more heat energy

Typical fuel energy contents:
gallon of gasoline = 125,000 Btu
1 gallon of ethanol = 84,400 Btu
1 gallon methanol = 62,800 Btu
1 gallon of gasohol
(10% ethanol, 90% gasoline) = 120,900 Btu
1 gallon of E-85
(85% ethanol, 15% gasoline) = 90,500 Btu
1 gallon of kerosene or light distillate oil = 135,000 Btu
1 gallon of middle distillate or diesel fuel oil = 138,690 Btu


Long term average on gasoline was 24 mpg while mileage on the same setup on E85 was 22 mpg.

Current setup upgraded turbo-
gasoline mileage 22 mpg = 5682 BTU/mi
E85 90,500 Btu /gallon / 18 mpg = 5028 BTU/mile (daily driving with periodic high boost acceleration)
E85 90,500 BTU/gallon/ 19.3 mpg = 4689 BTU/mile (driving mostly off boost as daily commuter)

Old setup stock turbo -
gasoline mileage Gasoline 125,000 Btu/ gallon / 24 = 5208 BTU/mile
My old setup, @ 92% of gasoline milage or 22 mpg
E85 90,500 BTU/gallon/22 = 4114 BTU/mile

A 5% increase in engine power is common on NA engines with minimal conversion changes, and much higher numbers are possible if compression or boost is used to take advantage of E85's higher fuel octane.


And lastly, with regard to your argument that ethanol is bad for your fuel system/engine....meth is more corrosive than ethanol, and most gas everywhere is really an "E10" blend, so if the fuel system is so hyper sensitive then that 10% would be doing damage...and so would the meth blend injection. And yes, 100% ethanol probably would do some harm. So would 100% meth. Thankfully no one runs that though... they run BLENDS instead. E85 is only 85% ethanol. Studies have shown little to no corrosion with E85.... and I can't tell you how many guys in Subaru world including myself only ran a Walbro 255 pump in the tank and were just fine. Towards the end of owning my WRX I actually ran 100% E85 in my tank WITHOUT A TUNE FOR IT! Just because I didn't care and thought it was funny. No problems whatsoever, except cold starts. It was cheaper than 85 octane.

I got my links/numbers from NASIOC.

[SERB Z06]

Stop posting about FI gains and E85, that is not what we are debating here. There is no argument that FI motors make great gains when running E85. What we are debating here is if E85 is worth it for an NA setup.

Originally Posted by Wrinklechops

Get two tunes. Or three.

To get an accurate AFR reading you need to switch the meter to Lambda or equivalence ratio setting rather than AFR. Most O2 sensors assume you are running gasoline and will report a stoichiometric mixture as 14.7:1 which is the proper value for gasoline. E85 has a Stoichiometric mixture of between 9.7 - 10:1 and a max power mixture of about 6.98-8.5:1 or so, where with gasoline it is 12.5:1-to 13.1.

If you must use an O2 sensor that only reports gasoline AFR information simply divide the numbers it reports by 1.47 - 1.50.

Awesome...so I will just bring my test tubes to test the percentage of ethanol to gasoline every time I fill up and adjust my tunes accordingly.

Also I didn't know it was so easy to constantly divide the AFR your wideband is reporting by 1.5 so you know your lamba readings, which still doesn't help because how many people can honestly say they know what is too rich/lean in lambda?

Originally Posted by Wrinklechops

t's really not any worse than the crap regular gas blend you get in winter anyways. So what if you're tuned for a healthy tank of 91/93oct, and then you get a shitty blend in the winter months? You face the same challenges with regular gas as you are criticizing E85 for. It's the risk you take when you get a professional dyno tune. I know many guys who got tuned on a bad tank of gas, or had their MAF sensors dirty. Your tuner isn't God, he can only do so much with what you bring him.

E85 fuel blends change content seasonally just like all gasolines blends change with the seasons. This seasonal change in blend for E85 is primarily to improve cold weather starting, where the changes in gasoline during cold weather is to improve cold weather starting. In the summer months, gasoline must be blended to reduce vapor lock and to reduce evaporative emissions.

It's not like gasoline at all. The difference between E85 and gasoline is that gasoline is regulated, E85 just has to be 70% ethanol at the minimum and aside from that you really don't know what you are getting. Gas on the other hand is required to tell you 1) the minimum octane rating and 2) if there is any ethanol mixed in.

Originally Posted by Wrinklechops

Many sources make a big deal about E85 having less thermal energy per gallon that a gallon of gas. They frequently draw the false conclusion that you cannot make more power on E85 than you can on gasoline. E85 actually has a higher specific energy at stoichiometric fuel air mixtures than gasoline, and at proper max power mixtures releases more thermal energy in the cylinder for a given amount of air to burn. Since an internal combustion engines power output is primarily air supply limited this means you can make 5% to nearly 30% more power on E85 than you can on gasoline.

I'm not sure what retard wrote this, but it's not true. What the sources are claiming is that E85 is less efficient than gasoline. Which means that 1 gallon of gasoline is going to make your car/truck drive farther than 1 gallon of E85.

What this retard is also forgetting is that since ethanol is also a lot less efficient, that means that you need to fill the combustion chamber with more fuel, which means that there is less room for air. Again this is not a problem with a FI setup because you are compressing air.

Originally Posted by Wrinklechops

And lastly, with regard to your argument that ethanol is bad for your fuel system/engine....meth is more corrosive than ethanol, and most gas everywhere is really an "E10" blend, so if the fuel system is so hyper sensitive then that 10% would be doing damage...and so would the meth blend injection. And yes, 100% ethanol probably would do some harm. So would 100% meth. Thankfully no one runs that though... they run BLENDS instead. E85 is only 85% ethanol. Studies have shown little to no corrosion with E85.... and I can't tell you how many guys in Subaru world including myself only ran a Walbro 255 pump in the tank and were just fine.

E85 in itself is not very corrosive, the problem is that it attracts water and that's where the corrosion comes in. In your WRX world it's not a problem because you are probably buying it twice a week due to the fact that fuel economy suffered because of it. But in high compression applications (aka race) or a street car/Jeep that doesn't get drive a lot, you will most definitely run into these issues.

Also, I don't think E85 has been available long enough to see what parts of stock fuel systems designed for gasoline can really handle it. That would be like taking poison and since you didn't die 5 minutes later saying that there were no ill-effects.

Originally Posted by Wrinklechops

Towards the end of owning my WRX I actually ran 100% E85 in my tank WITHOUT A TUNE FOR IT! Just because I didn't care and thought it was funny. No problems whatsoever, except cold starts. It was cheaper than 85 octane.

Besides the fact that this is almost up there with NOS energy drink in your gas tank, I still don't see why you don't understand that it's not cheaper.

Even in the midwest, where E85 is cheaper per gallon than gasoline, it is not cheaper when you measure fuel economy. Once you leave the midwest, E85 isn't cheaper anymore, in a lot of states it's more expensive than gasoline.

So once again, we can conclude that E85 is a good alternative to race fuel for FI engines, but is not practical and the cons outweigh the pros in an NA setup.

[Wrinklechops]

Originally Posted by SERB Z06

Stop posting about FI gains and E85, that is not what we are debating here. There is no argument that FI motors make great gains when running E85. What we are debating here is if E85 is worth it for an NA setup.

It is if you have high compression. That's what this thread is all about. And at this point my guess is that no one else cares about this discussion besides you or I.

Awesome...so I will just bring my test tubes to test the percentage of ethanol to gasoline every time I fill up and adjust my tunes accordingly.

Also I didn't know it was so easy to constantly divide the AFR your wideband is reporting by 1.5 so you know your lamba readings, which still doesn't help because how many people can honestly say they know what is too rich/lean in lambda?

That's why you get it tuned by a professional who knows what's up with E85, then you don't have to worry. Similar to getting a pro-tune on a dyno with pump gas. Beyond peace of mind or flashy gadgetry, having a wideband hooked up is pointless after the tune. Unless of course you don't trust your tuner, and want to keep an eye on it all the time...

It's not like gasoline at all. The difference between E85 and gasoline is that gasoline is regulated, E85 just has to be 70% ethanol at the minimum and aside from that you really don't know what you are getting. Gas on the other hand is required to tell you 1) the minimum octane rating and 2) if there is any ethanol mixed in.

Like I said before, E85 fuel blends change content seasonally just like all gasolines blends change with the seasons. Honestly if you want the best performance, you would probably get a tune for winter-type gas and one for summer-type gas.

E85 in itself is not very corrosive, the problem is that it attracts water and that's where the corrosion comes in. In your WRX world it's not a problem because you are probably buying it twice a week due to the fact that fuel economy suffered because of it. But in high compression applications (aka race) or a street car/Jeep that doesn't get drive a lot, you will most definitely run into these issues.

No, my mpg actually stayed about the same. I didn't need to fill up twice a week. Heck I don't even need to fill up twice a week with my Jeep. I didn't measure it down to the last drop of fuel but if there was supposed to be some gigantic drop in mpg I didn't see it. And my Jeep does get driven a lot, and back to whether or not a high compression motor build of our engines would benefit from E85...

Also, I don't think E85 has been available long enough to see what parts of stock fuel systems designed for gasoline can really handle it. That would be like taking poison and since you didn't die 5 minutes later saying that there were no ill-effects.

Well, we've been running an E10 blend of gasoline in our vehicle's fuel systems across the country with no problems for a while now. And I have yet to see a pump that says "Absolutely contains 10% ethanol"...what I have seen is this:




Key word: MAY. Goes back to the whole bringing your test tubes with you. Uh oh you're tuned for 91oct, who knows how much ethanol was in your tank when you got that pro-tune on the dyno! Could be the difference between life and death folks!

Besides the fact that this is almost up there with NOS energy drink in your gas tank, I still don't see why you don't understand that it's not cheaper.

http://e85prices.com/...

Even in the midwest, where E85 is cheaper per gallon than gasoline, it is not cheaper when you measure fuel economy. Once you leave the midwest, E85 isn't cheaper anymore, in a lot of states it's more expensive than gasoline.

Is Colorado considered the midwest? Because it's cheaper here. And the national average charts from that website show that it's cheaper nationwide. I guess you could make the argument also that diesel fuel is a waste because it's more expensive, yet nets you better mpgs? I'm not sure what you want exactly, magic fuel?

My MPGs didn't take a significant hit, nor have anyone I've talked to. But then again, who is getting tuned on E85 for fuel economy? Not many. They're getting tuned on E85 for the power. What do people with power like to do, cruise like grandmas? Well you gotta pay to play I guess.

So once again, we can conclude that E85 is a good alternative to race fuel for FI engines, but is not practical and the cons outweigh the pros in an NA setup.

Once again, YOU conclude this. Don't speak for everyone.

[JGC403]

This thread wasn't really about E85. I just wanted to know whats the highest compression ratio people were running on pump gas.

The one post said someone was running "high compression" at 10.7:1 on E85. Thats not high compression.

I am going to be rebuilding my 318 soon. It's going to be my experimental test engine, going in my '85 Ram. I got a 360 crank sittin around that I might put in. ITs going to be high compression, just how high I don't know yet.

[Wrinklechops]

Originally Posted by JGC403

The one post said someone was running "high compression" at 10.7:1 on E85. Thats not high compression.

That was the Mustang guy with a Vortech. I don't know how many lbs of boost he was running, but he kept everything the same but changed out some engine components (Comp Cams) and got a major bump in power across the powerband on E85. I don't know what he was at before, maybe 9:something:1? His numbers were impressive on stock heads and a stock intake manifold... at least they were impressive to me but what do I know...

How high of compression were you thinking about going? 12 something?

[JGC403]

As high as I can get 11, 12, 13:1. I want to clean up combustion chamber, eliminate any hot spots. Ceramic thermal barrier coating in combustion chamber, exhaust ports?

And to go along with the E85 debate, anyone know someone or have a new vehicle that has the E85 bagging. And have they tried it with E85 and compared their MPG's to gas? That would be a good starting point.

[Wrinklechops]

Originally Posted by JGC403

As high as I can get 11, 12, 13:1. I want to clean up combustion chamber, eliminate any hot spots. Ceramic thermal barrier coating in combustion chamber, exhaust ports?

And to go along with the E85 debate, anyone know someone or have a new vehicle that has the E85 bagging. And have they tried it with E85 and compared their MPG's to gas? That would be a good starting point.

13:1 would be sweet. That would start to breathe some life into our engines, kinda literally lol. Honestly I always thought it was kinda weaksauce for our motors to have a 8 or 9:1 compression ratio, normally aspirated. Just wasn't a recipe for any power.

Check out http://www.swaintech.com/ for ceramic coatings on your block. A lot of people with solid build motors have used them.

There was a guy on here not too long ago (think he's still around) who had a Tahoe or something I think, the FlexFuel variant. He said he never noticed a decrease in mpg when mixing E85 into his regular gasoline, or when running straight E85. I forget his name...

[JGC403]

I got these guys to ceramic coat and friction reducer on the pistons in my 403.

http://www.hpcoatings.com/hpc_antifriction.aspx

They are less than a 20 min drive from me.

[Wrinklechops]

Originally Posted by JGC403

I got these guys to ceramic coat and friction reducer on the pistons in my 403.

http://www.hpcoatings.com/hpc_antifriction.aspx

They are less than a 20 min drive from me.

Oh nice, how did you like it? Overall price worth it? That's a cool site... I'm considering getting valve springs coated when/if I do a makeover upgrade with a new cam.

[JGC403]

Originally Posted by Wrinklechops

Oh nice, how did you like it? Overall price worth it? That's a cool site... I'm considering getting valve springs coated when/if I do a makeover upgrade with a new cam.

I started another thread just on thermal coatings. But I was told that the thermal coating wasn't worth it, but the friction reducer was. So I am not sure if I will use it again.