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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by boostinallovryou View Post
    Sorry for the little delays in between posts. Along with this project, work, and wife, I have a super comp dragster I have to give love to also hahahaha. I have photos of my PCM opened up and I have pinned out some of the inputs. I want to get all the data I can before I upload to the wiki. Finding philips datasheets is hard enough but when you have custom silkscreening on top of that.....deciphering what is what is extremely complicated. So I have chased the MAP, TPS, 4 O2's, coolant temp, and air temp all the way from the bulkhead connector to a buffer. The other side of the buffer I have chased to the ADC lines on the Z3. There is something way weird going on. So on each chip one ADC line runs to two pins. There are three buffers by the way. I have no idea what is going on there. It should be a one to one relationship. Because I can't get a datasheet on the buffer there is only one way to determine what is going on. I'm going to have to build a test harness to power the PCM up on my bench. Then I will be able to supply each input with a unique voltage or ground so I can chase it all the way to the Z3. This of course is going to take a bit. While I am doing this I still am walking through the code. Now that I know 0xFF880 land is real memory I can continue walking the code out. Also I can search through the code to find the areas where the ADC is read and where 0x40000 and 0x50000 is accessed. This will point me to where the final ignition and fuel values have been calculated and are being delivered to the daughter MC's. Then try to work backwards from there. As you can see there is a lot to do, but if this was easy, it would have been done already :-)
    EPIC! are you saying that the traces from the ADC pins on the MCU split somewhere, and connect to more than one buffer pin on the same buffer chip, or that they connect to more than one buffer chip? Can you upload the super high rez images to the wiki even if you dont wanna make a page for them yet? I wanna have a look.

  2. #27
    Forum CONDUCTOR Man Z88Z's Avatar
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    I've been following this - as much as possible. LOL

    What is the goal here?

    Is it to improve performance beyond what SCT can do, and/or would that involve changing a chip or component? I thought SCT was pretty much where it could be in terms of doing what can be done within the existing architecture.

    Or is it more about building in our own interface so that we could do our own tuning?

    If it's the latter, what would we be using to interface with the PCM, just a regular laptop or something?

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z88Z View Post
    I've been following this - as much as possible. LOL

    What is the goal here?

    Is it to improve performance beyond what SCT can do, and/or would that involve changing a chip or component? I thought SCT was pretty much where it could be in terms of doing what can be done within the existing architecture.

    Or is it more about building in our own interface so that we could do our own tuning?

    If it's the latter, what would we be using to interface with the PCM, just a regular laptop or something?
    the goal is to enable the use of open source tuning software.. so we dont have to fork over cash to the likes of sct for something that should be cheap for free.. and to gain understanding. with any luck we will be able to use a standard pass thru interface to do the flashing. (can be obtained from china for like 15 dollars).. it should also allow us to make the pcm behave any way we want, the only limitation would be the clock rate of the processor..... it should be good to at least 7k rpm as it is i should imagine...

  4. #29
    Modfag Saleen4971's Avatar
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    i hope so, cuz thats what im hoping to spin my new motor too
    Ross
    1998 Grand Cherokee 5.9 Limited
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  5. #30
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    The reasoning behind all of this is going to be different for each person you ask. My motivation is pretty simple. I hate companies like SCT that charge an ENORMOUS amount of money. I know that every company has overhead, out to make big bucks, etc, etc. I wouldn't have a problem paying a REASONABLE amount of money to SCT, but when they charge $350 for the software program (Only one PCM allowed unless you buy extra licenses at $100 a piece for each new PCM), then $450+ for a programmer to actually do the flashing I get pist. $800+ just to flash my PCM. On top of that it seems SCT can't do everything. Please correct me if I am wrong but you can not use a 2bar+ map sensor, you can not refactor the X and Y axis in maps, and I'm sure more. Now I could be wrong, but the fact it costs $800 is crazy. Yes I know EMS costs 3k+ and XFI costs 2.4k+ but is that right either?? The PCM in your vehicle has the capability to do ANYTHING you want it to do. It has injector drivers just like an EMS, it has coil drivers just like an EMS, it has idle control, closed loop, etc etc just like an EMS. What is the difference between the PCM and EMS.......only software. Once we reverse engineer the JTEC then you can have an EMS for free. Plus the CCD bus works which it does not with an EMS :-)

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by boostinallovryou View Post
    The reasoning behind all of this is going to be different for each person you ask. My motivation is pretty simple. I hate companies like SCT that charge an ENORMOUS amount of money. I know that every company has overhead, out to make big bucks, etc, etc. I wouldn't have a problem paying a REASONABLE amount of money to SCT, but when they charge $350 for the software program (Only one PCM allowed unless you buy extra licenses at $100 a piece for each new PCM), then $450+ for a programmer to actually do the flashing I get pist. $800+ just to flash my PCM. On top of that it seems SCT can't do everything. Please correct me if I am wrong but you can not use a 2bar+ map sensor, you can not refactor the X and Y axis in maps, and I'm sure more. Now I could be wrong, but the fact it costs $800 is crazy. Yes I know EMS costs 3k+ and XFI costs 2.4k+ but is that right either?? The PCM in your vehicle has the capability to do ANYTHING you want it to do. It has injector drivers just like an EMS, it has coil drivers just like an EMS, it has idle control, closed loop, etc etc just like an EMS. What is the difference between the PCM and EMS.......only software. Once we reverse engineer the JTEC then you can have an EMS for free. Plus the CCD bus works which it does not with an EMS :-)
    agree, stand alone engine management is nothing more than any other pcm, except that the manufacturer makes available the tools to program it to do what you want.. they are nothing more than micro controllers running code.. and as far as component cost cant be more than 50 bucks to mass produce, and yet they charge 3000 dollars to do what any pcm already in the vehichle would be able to do on its own if the manufacturer made available the tools to do so... and this is where it is at for me.. although the sct can allow you to run a 2 bar map, the 2 bar map uses the same 0 to 5 volt range so they just shift the below 1 bar data down the table, and add values at the top half of the table effectivly halving the resolution of the table.. and hoping the pcms logic will take care of the inbetween..

  7. #32
    Modfag Saleen4971's Avatar
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    you can absolutely run a 2bar map. msot os us supercharged guys are.

    but sct leaves a lot to be desired.
    Ross
    1998 Grand Cherokee 5.9 Limited
    MPP Headers - Thunderbolt Metallic Cat - 3" Mag catback - EBC Brakes w/ drilled Rotors - 4bbl M1 - Vortech 12psi - Built trans & 2900 stall - Ford 8.8 - Addco & Hellwig Sways - Poly Bushings - H&R Springs - Grabber UHP Tires - Alpine/Infinity Stereo - FX-R BiXenon Retrofit

  8. #33
    Forum CONDUCTOR Man Z88Z's Avatar
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    EMS? Is that the AEM system or is it being used as a generic term> ....not that it really matters.

    The prices you quoted for SCT were real high. I can see why you'd be PO'd! Our resident SCT vendor had better prices for the canned tunes/tuners plus unlimited tuning for like a hundred more.

    I had been told by a local shop that does both tuning for both SCT and FAST, ACCEL etc, that the architecture of the factory PCMs, (maybe especially Mopars?) was fairly limited in that it was only made to run fairly stockish cars and pass emissions regulations, whereas the aftermarket systems were designed for all out performance. In other words the PCM itself is a limiting factor.

    So are we figuring we can push those parameters any further or are we mostly looking at cost effective tuning here?

    Please understand I'm not coming from a position of strength on the subject, just trying to build a better understanding here. These ZJs were the first EFI cars I really got into modding.

    All in all it sounds like a very worthwhile project. Just the thing for some of us envelope pushers on here

  9. #34
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    So it looks like there is a third company that knows JTEC, DC Performance. I was made aware that Chris Jensen had a JTEC emulator. Look at the video in this page (http://dcperformance.blogspot.com/20...ty-tuning.html) and there is a short section where they show it. So DC claims they know everything about the JTEC, I am sure they will not share any of that knowledge with us because it will cut their profit of course. According to DC, SCT is missing a lot of stuff.

    Yes the EMS is AEM's name for their standalone.

    On the code front I found where memory areas 0x40000 and 0x50000 were being accessed in hopes that is where the injector pulse width and timing was being sent out to the HC11's (fuel and spark MC's). Seems only a 0x4 or 0x5 are being written to 0x400000 area and two memory addresses are being read in the 0x50000 area. Not what I was hoping for.

    I am going to get in contact with Chris and see if he will lend ANY info to our cause.

    Oh yea, two new pics added to the wiki. Shows the viper PCM opened up.

  10. #35
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    I took the liberty of ripping that youtube video in 720p and then doing a frame by frame... Screen caps of their setup are now in the wiki file section. I believe it is a JTEC pcm connected to a motorola CPU emulator of some kind... id guess they do the dino tuning with their custom jtec pcm which they are able to read live memory data, and see the signals as they are presented to the JTEC in real time... then make their cal and write it to the customers PCM.. like they say... OBDII is fairly low speed and not really suited for logging.. especially since the JTEC gives a fairly low priority to dealing with OBDII I/O as is stated in the documentation on that dodge site with info on the JTEC... Hardware processor emulators are pretty cheap... is this something we would need... i cant really say.. probably not except where extreme dyno tuning is needed..

    the device with racelogic printed on it i believe to be a motorola microcontroller emulator.. i couldnt find the particular product online, so it must be old.

    After futher googling, i located this thread
    http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17650

    where someone called hexdummy (chris) states the following..

    "I had to figure out how to read, write, and tune the ecu myself. Tuning software wise , I use a software that is very similar to EVC's WINOLS, but is made to work with my older Racelogic emulator. The problem is, even if you have the software, the emulator, and a way to program the ecu, you will still have to know where and what you want to modify. If you are interested, you can find WINOLS on the internet, they have a free demo version of their software which will give you a better idea of what I'm talking about. If I were you though, I would wait a little longer to see if HP Tuners will support the older JTEC equiped Chrysler vehicles. - Chris"



    as chris location is in los angeles.. he is likely the same chris of this DC tuners people..


    boostinallovryou... do our MCUs have BDM interface? maby that is what they are using..

    further searching reveals the racelogic box may be an eprom emulator.. not a cpu emulator.. either way racelogic.co.uk no longer lists it on their website, but cpu and eprom emulators are both available cheap from china
    Last edited by enlight22; 03-08-2012 at 09:14 PM.

  11. #36
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    Yes Chris is hexdummy. I have written him an email asking for any bit of help he can give. I found posts where he was in the same spot we were in. We will see if he writes me back.

  12. #37
    RallyJeep GO
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    If this would give better control over tranny parameters, I'll be all over it when something becomes available.
    1998 ZJ 5.9 Limited - Deep Slate
    Mods: Big trans cooler, 231 swap, Indy 2.02 heads prepped by IMM, Comp 20-744-9 cam, 1.7 HS roller rockers, 52mm TB, Airgap manifold, DT headers and full 3" exhaust, SCT tune homebrewed by me, Martin Saine valve body, B&M tranny pan, magic suspension made from unicorn tears, power steering cooler, lots of lighting mods

  13. #38
    Modfag Saleen4971's Avatar
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    do you want me to just send you my spare ZJ PCM?

    im thinking it may be more complicated for the viper PCM due to the added drivers?
    Ross
    1998 Grand Cherokee 5.9 Limited
    MPP Headers - Thunderbolt Metallic Cat - 3" Mag catback - EBC Brakes w/ drilled Rotors - 4bbl M1 - Vortech 12psi - Built trans & 2900 stall - Ford 8.8 - Addco & Hellwig Sways - Poly Bushings - H&R Springs - Grabber UHP Tires - Alpine/Infinity Stereo - FX-R BiXenon Retrofit

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by boostinallovryou View Post
    Yes Chris is hexdummy. I have written him an email asking for any bit of help he can give. I found posts where he was in the same spot we were in. We will see if he writes me back.
    this guy ever get back to you?

    I doubt he will be helpful as it seems he is making a living off of this.

  15. #40
    Administrator Ninergrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boostinallovryou View Post
    Yes Chris is hexdummy. I have written him an email asking for any bit of help he can give. I found posts where he was in the same spot we were in. We will see if he writes me back.
    Hi there,
    Welcome aboard and thank you for all the work you are putting into this.
    As far as I am concerned you are doing God's work here lol.
    If you need any help, besides fellas in this thread chipping in, let us know pelase. I probably could scrounge up the 5.9ZJ pcm if you needed, or send you some money through paypal to help out with your time/effort. I am sure most of the boosted guys here wouldn't mind donating to fund this project, it is in our best intesrest after all. I could never get my jeep running right using SCT, and doing "remote tunning"("drive and see") just doen't work for me.

    I will inquire about 5.9 pc tomorrow and if I get it I will ship it out to you.
    Ross(saleen) has my number and email address in case you need it.
    -Davit.

    98 ZJ 5.9L Slate
    Click here for MODS

    98 Ram 2500 5.9L 24V Cummins, short bed, Blue
    MBPR Turbo back 4" exhaust, Edge Juice, Superchips tuner.


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  16. #41
    Gen. 1 Troll Taz5.9's Avatar
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    would someone be able to flash the PCM so the automatic transmission can be deleted? (5 speed swap)
    Slate 5.9 Limited 8"/ARB/IRO/KOR/OME/231
    White 5.9 Limited stock/231/30's
    93 ZJ SE-5.9 LTD clone

  17. #42
    Forum CONDUCTOR Man Z88Z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taz5.9 View Post
    would someone be able to flash the PCM so the automatic transmission can be deleted? (5 speed swap)
    Sean has done it once as far as I know. He didn't get a lot of feedback on it as the truck came off the road soon after that. Not sure if it had any codes etc.

    The guy Nick/Kolak uses for his "send out the PCM" flashes has done it once too for an offroader in Europe. He said that worked fine.

    For all that effort - just as easy to find a Dodge truck 5spd PCM

  18. #43
    RallyJeep GO
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    ^ If that can be done, then in theory, it would work for a 4.0 PCM, right? I've been talking to a friend who would love a stick in his 01 4.0 WJ, but can't swap one in if he'll have codes, as that'll make him fail inspection.
    1998 ZJ 5.9 Limited - Deep Slate
    Mods: Big trans cooler, 231 swap, Indy 2.02 heads prepped by IMM, Comp 20-744-9 cam, 1.7 HS roller rockers, 52mm TB, Airgap manifold, DT headers and full 3" exhaust, SCT tune homebrewed by me, Martin Saine valve body, B&M tranny pan, magic suspension made from unicorn tears, power steering cooler, lots of lighting mods

  19. #44
    Forum CONDUCTOR Man Z88Z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by comptiger5000 View Post
    ^ If that can be done, then in theory, it would work for a 4.0 PCM, right? I've been talking to a friend who would love a stick in his 01 4.0 WJ, but can't swap one in if he'll have codes, as that'll make him fail inspection.
    I'm guessing that most likely it could.

    I'd ask Nick or Sean - or wait and see what these guys come up with ^

    If your buddy isn't going to mess with his tune much then maybe Nick's guy would be the way to go. Can't swear to it but I think he was using Tom Fox or something? That's just a big maybe though, might be someone else.

    Sean's thing I don't remember. I know he did it and I'm pretty sure he said there were no CELs - but I can't swear to that either. Plus not sure how many miles were put on that truck after that in comparison to how many miles it might have taken for something to show up.
    Not sure if the CEL thing was the actual reason he was doing it - although not sure what other reason there'd be for doing it as as far as I could see the trans CELs in my auto trans PCM'd 5spd didn't cause any kind of lack of performance due to a "limp mode" or anything. I only solved the CEL thing cuz I was facing emissions inspection like your bud there.

    Then again there's B&G Chrysler flashes, but I thought from the few reviews I've read their service was maybe kinda so-so, or maybe it was just their prices.


    Makes me wonder - that 01 PCM is basically the same unit as ours and probably not very different from what Dodge was using in that year truck right?

    I wonder if it would be possible to swap a Dodge PCM into his dub-J? I'm not familiar with the firing orders of the 6 cyls, but even if the V6 firing order was different from the I6 - couldn't the injector wires be swapped at the PCM connector? The 01s were still the Jeep I6 right - or had they swapped over to something else before that?

  20. #45
    Modfag Saleen4971's Avatar
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    01 is still jtec. And jeep 4.0
    Ross
    1998 Grand Cherokee 5.9 Limited
    MPP Headers - Thunderbolt Metallic Cat - 3" Mag catback - EBC Brakes w/ drilled Rotors - 4bbl M1 - Vortech 12psi - Built trans & 2900 stall - Ford 8.8 - Addco & Hellwig Sways - Poly Bushings - H&R Springs - Grabber UHP Tires - Alpine/Infinity Stereo - FX-R BiXenon Retrofit

  21. #46
    RallyJeep GO
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    Probably. It's still a Jeep I6. Swapping a Dodge PCM is a no-go, as the Dodges probably wouldn't talk to the BCM right, etc.
    1998 ZJ 5.9 Limited - Deep Slate
    Mods: Big trans cooler, 231 swap, Indy 2.02 heads prepped by IMM, Comp 20-744-9 cam, 1.7 HS roller rockers, 52mm TB, Airgap manifold, DT headers and full 3" exhaust, SCT tune homebrewed by me, Martin Saine valve body, B&M tranny pan, magic suspension made from unicorn tears, power steering cooler, lots of lighting mods

  22. #47
    Forum CONDUCTOR Man Z88Z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by comptiger5000 View Post
    .... the Dodges probably wouldn't talk to the BCM right, etc.
    Mine engages in discussions with the Jeep BCM.

    Might be different by 01 though

  23. #48
    RallyJeep GO
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    ^ Yeah, that's my concern. The WJ BCM is a lot more complicated, although they might still talk.
    1998 ZJ 5.9 Limited - Deep Slate
    Mods: Big trans cooler, 231 swap, Indy 2.02 heads prepped by IMM, Comp 20-744-9 cam, 1.7 HS roller rockers, 52mm TB, Airgap manifold, DT headers and full 3" exhaust, SCT tune homebrewed by me, Martin Saine valve body, B&M tranny pan, magic suspension made from unicorn tears, power steering cooler, lots of lighting mods

  24. #49
    Administrator Ninergrad's Avatar
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    DO we have any news on this at all?
    -Davit.

    98 ZJ 5.9L Slate
    Click here for MODS

    98 Ram 2500 5.9L 24V Cummins, short bed, Blue
    MBPR Turbo back 4" exhaust, Edge Juice, Superchips tuner.


    http://autotruckservice.org/

  25. #50
    Member scjeep4.7HO's Avatar
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    I am very glad to see someone looking into this. I can't stand how no one is making a real good tuner for our pcm's. SCT is the best we have and in my opinion the company sucks. They won't even finish the tuners to be fully operational. If I can help in any way let me know.
    Last edited by scjeep4.7HO; 03-26-2012 at 09:23 AM.
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