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  1. #26
    Banned SERB Z06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrinklechops View Post
    True...but 12psi from a turbo will give you more power than 12psi from a supercharger just because of the parasitic loss difference.
    It depends.

    12 psi on a T-Trim Vortech will make a lot more power than 12 psi on a T25 (stock 2g DSM) turbo.

    If the compressor housings and internals were the same, the turbo would make power earlier.

  2. #27
    Member scjeep4.7HO's Avatar
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    You guys are trying to outwit one another rather than trying to come to terms to the topic at hand. Bottom line, every thing being the same turbo will outperform a supercharger. They usually can spin at a higher RPM (but that also depends on build quality) don't have a parisitic load and many times produce more power wih less PSI of boost then other forms of forced induction. My supercharger can hang up there until you get to the larger turbos. But like everything boost doesn't mean shit unless it is sized for it's intended purpose. You can show all the compressor curves all day long but you have to stay within the compressors sweet spot for it to be optimal.
    Big ASS supercharged 4.7L HO, cammed, Custom Made Supercharger COG drive system, 72mm F&B throttle body, ROSS ceramic coated pistons, Billet H beam rods, 1st set of race prepped big valves heads W/ behive springs, Custom one off sheet metal intake, Modified Edelbrock Mustang intake elbow, ATI super dampner, 3,000 Edge racing billet stall converter, meth injected, SCT tuned, 39# injectors, 2 bar map, Turbo Smart Race Port BOV, 180* T stat, True dual exhuast, Built tranny W/ deep trans pan, built transfer case, 275 60 R17 rubber.

  3. #28
    Member JGC403's Avatar
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    So what are you thinking about for the exhaust up to the turbo, are you going to use the stock manifolds or are you going to get something custom made?

    After the turbo's exhaust outlet, if you do a "megaphone" it will help with spool up.
    No replacement for displacement!

    1995 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo ZJ
    360 Stroker, 408c.i.


  4. #29
    Banned Wrinklechops's Avatar
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    Yea, that's why I'm in the process of figuring out which turbo I should go with. Two turbos remotely mounted would be solid, and I could then get away with smaller turbos... but if I wanted just one turbo, I'd have to go bigger. The 5.2 ZJ guy I posted had a Turbonetics T-61 turbo, so I assume that was fairly decent for his setup. I really wish we had that guy on our forum... or if anyone knows of any other turbo ZJs???

    My other question I'm researching is whether or not I could just use only one bank of exhaust manifolds to power a turbo...then it would be similar to a turbo-4 banger I suppose. Not sure if that would deliver enough boost to really power the V8 though. I would just leave the other side like normal.

    I don't know, definitely have some things to work on. I did try calling KRC Performance and SD Concepts today to pick their brains about their turbocharged Dakotas and Rams with the 318 and 360 but no one answered the phone.

  5. #30
    Member JGC403's Avatar
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    So You didn't get a hold of the people who built that turbo 5.2 either?
    No replacement for displacement!

    1995 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo ZJ
    360 Stroker, 408c.i.


  6. #31
    Banned Wrinklechops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGC403 View Post
    So You didn't get a hold of the people who built that turbo 5.2 either?
    Oh yea, no Email didn't work. Of all places, this is the shop that built that turbo ZJ:

    http://www.billshonda.com/

    And there's no phone number to call. I just wish I could find the actual guy who owned that ZJ too!

  7. #32
    Member scjeep4.7HO's Avatar
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    I wouldn't use one bank of a V8 to spool the turbo. Unless it's an undersized unit for quick spool but peters out top end.
    Big ASS supercharged 4.7L HO, cammed, Custom Made Supercharger COG drive system, 72mm F&B throttle body, ROSS ceramic coated pistons, Billet H beam rods, 1st set of race prepped big valves heads W/ behive springs, Custom one off sheet metal intake, Modified Edelbrock Mustang intake elbow, ATI super dampner, 3,000 Edge racing billet stall converter, meth injected, SCT tuned, 39# injectors, 2 bar map, Turbo Smart Race Port BOV, 180* T stat, True dual exhuast, Built tranny W/ deep trans pan, built transfer case, 275 60 R17 rubber.

  8. #33
    Banned Wrinklechops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scjeep4.7HO View Post
    I wouldn't use one bank of a V8 to spool the turbo. Unless it's an undersized unit for quick spool but peters out top end.
    Yea, if I was going to do that I might as well run a twin turbo setup with two small snails.... Otherwise it's looking like it's going to be one big turbo remotely mounted or mounted in the engine bay like that 5.2 ZJ I posted pictures of. If only I can figure out not only the piping but also how (and IF) he ran oil and coolant lines to and from the turbo.

  9. #34
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    1987 944 turbo, and i said staying out of boost is a matter of your right foot, and i for one cannot keep my right foot out of the pedal
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrinklechops View Post
    I feel like I'm beating my head against a wall

    YES you DO see an increase in fuel efficiency with a turbocharged motor! Assuming you stay out of boost. And YES you can stay out of boost. What turbocharged car do you have? Staying out of boost is not a matter of the size of the engine, it's a matter of tuning and boost management. Like I said before, you can get up to cruising speed on the highway, then drop your rpms low enough that you're cruising and staying out of boost and then sit back and enjoy your MPGs

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sL-nJfEffc


    I'm not saying there would be some massive mpg increase for us, but it would help our already horrible MPGs. Supercharging our motors only serves to make our horrible MPGs become even more horrible.

  10. #35
    Forum CONDUCTOR Man Z88Z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrinklechops View Post
    . I did try calling KRC Performance and SD Concepts today to pick their brains about their turbocharged Dakotas and Rams with the 318 and 360 but no one answered the phone.
    I don't know much about KRC but I do know up until a few months ago they had the wrong phone number listed on their website. The guy didn't know til I told him. Can't remember where I found the correct phone number though.
    Might be fixed by now.

    SDConcepts looks like a real impressive shop but I'm not sure what's up with them now. They are about an hour from me, never been there but I talked to them a bunch of times and had been planning on doing some tuning and dyno stuff with them.

    I DO know that Chris - the SDCE guy that was really great about answering questions on dakota-durango.com - is no longer with the company. He left early or mid 2009.
    He did all the forum stuff and most of the dyno tuning. With him gone that left Scott (the owner) busy as a one armed paper hanger. Last I talked to Wendy (his wife) he was major league swamped trying to get all the tuning done for the cars they already had in line.

    I eventually gave up on them after leaving a million or so messages and not getting any calls back. I'm hoping the current economy combined with being short handed didn't drive them under.
    I figure when I get my lightweight done I'll give them a try again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrinklechops View Post
    Oh yea, no Email didn't work. Of all places, this is the shop that built that turbo ZJ:

    http://www.billshonda.com/

    And there's no phone number to call. I just wish I could find the actual guy who owned that ZJ too!
    That would definitely be a major WIN getting him on here.

    I didn't look through that whole link yet, is that where you found out about this turbo ZJ or do you have any other links?
    The engine shots are kinda sucky, can't even see what he did for exhaust plumbing.

    This was probably already brought up but being OBD1 that could not have been easy to tune for any kind of massive gains. Was that covered in the link you saw of was it just pictures?
    Maybe/hopefully he's running MS or some kind of standalone to take full advantage of his setup.
    (again - I've been keeping up with this thread to some extent but I didn't memorize the whole thing so forgive me if that was already brought up earlier LOL)

    EDIT: Just checked. No info, just the pics you posted. They even referred to it as Turbo Cherokee

    Thinking maybe they used that Greddy controller that they sell.
    Last edited by Z88Z; 04-16-2010 at 08:05 AM.

  11. #36
    Banned SERB Z06's Avatar
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    He is probably tuning using an SAFC and using that MSD box to pull timing under boost.

  12. #37
    Banned Wrinklechops's Avatar
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    Good news!

    I can't believe I didn't think to try looking...

    Found a complete turbo kit made for a Durango on eBay....



    Comes with all this!

    Hybrid Turbo Charger:

    * .57 compressor wheel trim mapped for low and high boost setups
    * Oil fitting gaskets & mounting studs included
    * Capable of producing over 450 horsepower
    * Wet float bearings & properly balanced
    * 3" inlet diameter with a 2" outlet
    * 50 A/R compressor housing
    * .63 A/R turbine housing
    * 1/8 NPT oil inlet
    * T3/T4 hybrid

    (1) Front Mount Intercooler:

    * Large design cools down the turbocharged air efficiently
    * Strong TIG welds will support high PSI levels
    * Lightweight aluminum racing intercooler
    * Extra thick core provides ample cooling
    * 2.5" cold outlet & 2.5" hot inlet
    * Less then 2% pressure drop

    (1) Universal Intercooler Piping Kit:

    * Lightweight yet strong aluminum piping
    * May necessitate light modification to fit
    * (16) stainless steel worm gear clamps
    * (2) 2.5 90 degree silicone couplers
    * (6) 2.5 straight silicone couplers
    * (2) 90 degree 2.5 bends
    * (2) 60 degree 2.5 bends
    * (2) 45 degree 2.5 bends
    * (2) straight 2.5 pipes

    (1) Boost Controller:

    * Can be setup to adjust boost PSI on the fly
    * Can be adjusted for any PSI level desired
    * Control your boost with a precise click
    * Includes complete install kit
    * Anodized aluminum finish
    * CNC machined design


    (1) Slim Cooling Fan:

    * Fan can be used to cool: A/C condenser, oil or transmission cooler, mounting on an intercooler to prevent heat soak, or cooling a a2w radiator
    * Slim design provides excellent engine bay clearance
    * Includes the mounting tabs for a easy zip tie install
    * Reversible design can either pull or push air
    * Versatility of a push/pull reversible fan
    * Superior flow of a curved-blade design
    * Creates additional aftermarket cooling
    * 1.25" thick outside perimeter
    * 2.50" thick inside perimeter


    (1) Electronic Turbo Timer:

    * Ensures a proper cool down for your turbocharged car every time
    * Includes pigtail wiring and extra wiring for ease of installation
    * Important to preventing premature turbo wear and failure
    * Mounted inside the vehicle for on the fly adjustments
    * Precisely calculates the cool down period for the motor
    * Auto mode feature creates a hassle-free operation
    * Increases turbocharger's operating lifespan
    * Bright Easy to read LED Digital Display
    * Failure to reduce the temperature of the turbo could result in "coking" of oil inside the turbo
    * Coking is the baking of oil, turning it into a grimy substance


    (1) 10 Meters Heat Wrap:

    * Heat powers the turbochargers turbine inlet. Keep the heat inside the exhaust pipes
    * Heat kills the turbochargers compressor inlet. Keep the heat out of the cold piping.
    * Control additional engine bay heat and prevent overheating.
    * Keep intercooled air cooled.
    * Made of very high temp fiberglass.

    (1) Stainless Downpipe:

    * 2.5" Inlet
    * Waterjet cut 5 bolt flange.
    * Mandrel bent stainless steel
    * Beautiful TIG welds

    (1) High Flow Intake Filter:

    * Protect the turbo system from debris
    * Instant HP adder
    * Extreme high flow
    * 3" inlet perfectly matching the turbocharger inlet

    (1) High Flow Breather Cap:

    * Extreme high flow
    * Keeps crankcase ventilation clean for emissions
    * Works in conjunction with the catch can to keep inside of turbo piping oil free

    (1) Coolant Sensor Bung

    * Monitor the water temperature via this sensor relocation
    * Easy solution to run aftermarket coolant sensor
    * Provides more precise readings then the stock location
    * Features 2 installation clamps for an easy add on
    * 38mm ends fits most OEM coolant hoses
    * Strong Aluminum construction

    (1) Non-divided T3 Flange

    * Water jet cut for precision flow
    * Mild steel for easy welding to an adapter pipe or direct to stock manifold

  13. #38
    Banned Wrinklechops's Avatar
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    Or I could get the other kit...



    !!

  14. #39
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    watch out for those ebay kits, some of the turbos comming from china dont last too well.. idk where that turbo comes from

  15. #40
    Banned Wrinklechops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by enlight22 View Post
    watch out for those ebay kits, some of the turbos comming from china dont last too well.. idk where that turbo comes from
    Yea, on second thought.... Ixnay on the eBay turbo kits lol.

    Figured it was a steal for $499. I suppose even if the turbo was junk I
    could have always replaced it assuming everything else in the kit stayed intact. The eBay intercoolers aren't all that bad though...

    I'm starting to wonder if I should just pull a Bill O'Reilly here and say "%~# IT! (we'll do it live!)" and get a supercharger kit instead. Trying to figure out the exhaust plumbing for a turbo is becoming quite tiresome...

  16. #41
    Member GreenZJ's Avatar
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    Stay with it man!
    -'98 ZJ 5.9L Ltd Sunroof Delete Model-


    -2007 Suzuki GSX-R 600 Black/Black-

  17. #42
    yumi meowMix BuckeyeRideR's Avatar
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    great thread. Got me thinking now i should just put a hella big turbo behind my downpipe and hook everything up. Actually doesn't seem too difficult.
    Captain Nate

  18. #43
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    One of the fabricators at my work was telling me he would do my custom Y-Pipe for me...

    Than he went on to tell me he was doing a custom turbo setup on a Dakota 5.9 2wd... Single Turbo

    Told him to make two setups and make sure the pipes fit on mine... feeding of both banks as well, I will let you know how the setup goes...

    Turbo down the road for me I suppose! Gonna stay a 360 to keep the walls as thick as possible...
    1998 ZJ 5.9L V8 - Endless mod list... - SOLD
    2004 Lincoln LS 3.9L V8 - Loving it still!


  19. #44
    Banned Wrinklechops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenZJ View Post
    Stay with it man!
    Haha, alright! Thanks for keeping me motivated.

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeRideR View Post
    great thread. Got me thinking now i should just put a hella big turbo behind my downpipe and hook everything up. Actually doesn't seem too difficult.
    No, you're right, it really doesn't seem too difficult. Only questions I have going forward is mounting the turbo and what kind of turbo exactly to get. Custom intercooler to throttle body piping can all be made to fit later...only question is getting the exhaust manifold/piping to the turbo....

    Quote Originally Posted by limited360 View Post
    One of the fabricators at my work was telling me he would do my custom Y-Pipe for me...

    Than he went on to tell me he was doing a custom turbo setup on a Dakota 5.9 2wd... Single Turbo

    Told him to make two setups and make sure the pipes fit on mine... feeding of both banks as well, I will let you know how the setup goes...

    Turbo down the road for me I suppose! Gonna stay a 360 to keep the walls as thick as possible...
    You are awesome, did I tell you that? lol you will HAVE to keep me/us updated on this. I assume it's easier for 2WD with no axle/diff up there to plumb exhaust stuff? What kind of turbo was he using, do you know?

    Seriously in the end, I think a reasonably setup turbo kit would cost the same as a supercharger kit... so to that I say WHY NOT DO IT? lol

    Let's keep this thread going guys... maybe we can all come up with some ideas.

    And Z88Z, thanks for the info on SDCE and KRC! I had the same problem you did with getting through to KRC (still haven't). And maybe I'll try emailing SDCE since they don't do the whole answering calls/returning calls thing.

  20. #45
    yumi meowMix BuckeyeRideR's Avatar
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    Yea man, i did some research and i think this totally might be a project for me in the future. I don't no too much about SCed or TCed setups but from what i've read and the looks of it it seems fairly simple. I have a 3" 3-bolt flange on my down pipe so i was thinking i could just adapt the turbo right to that making it super easy.

    Here comes a noob question, but are intercoolers necessary for turbos?

    Is there something i'm missing, because i don't understand why more people have not tackled this. And your right turbo stuff is a heckofa lot cheaper that super stuff.
    Captain Nate

  21. #46
    Banned Wrinklechops's Avatar
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    In short, yes you would want to run an intercooler for a turbo. You can get away without on a supercharger usually because superchargers don't run off of exhaust gases so they're never as hot as a turbo. But ideally any time you're compressing air it gets hotter and you would see a noticeable increase in performance with an intercooler in either case. But I don't know of any stock production turbocharged vehicle that doesn't have an intercooler whereas lots of supercharged cars don't have one.

  22. #47
    yumi meowMix BuckeyeRideR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrinklechops View Post
    In short, yes you would want to run an intercooler for a turbo. You can get away without on a supercharger usually because superchargers don't run off of exhaust gases so they're never as hot as a turbo. But ideally any time you're compressing air it gets hotter and you would see a noticeable increase in performance with an intercooler in either case. But I don't know of any stock production turbocharged vehicle that doesn't have an intercooler whereas lots of supercharged cars don't have one.
    alright thats what i was thinking, especially since its spun by the exhaust which is hella hot. I think mounting an intercooler may be a bit of a challenge. The pic you posted of ZJ with an intercooloer looks like its mounted sideways. Don't know how useful that would be?
    Captain Nate

  23. #48
    Banned Wrinklechops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeRideR View Post
    alright thats what i was thinking, especially since its spun by the exhaust which is hella hot. I think mounting an intercooler may be a bit of a challenge. The pic you posted of ZJ with an intercooloer looks like its mounted sideways. Don't know how useful that would be?
    By sideways you mean, not facing the front of the vehicle like the radiator does?

    It doesn't matter a whole lot, as long as the intercooler is either away from the engine bay heat as much as possible and/OR it's getting sufficient air flow to it.

    My WRX intercooler was "top mount", and that's what the hood scoop is for - to direct air on top of it as you drive to cool it. Plus side was less turbo lag, down side was heatsoak, especially on hot days.

    Audi's B5 S4 (twin turbo) stuck their 2 intercoolers in the wheel wells kinda...they're called "side mount". Pretty sure DSM cars did this as well.

    Ideally, the front mount (FMIC) intercooler is the most effective. Some downsides to it of course is the increased lag, psi drop, and possibly less airflow to radiator and AC system... but usually the power increase from a properly tuned FMIC with an appropriate turbo negates all those negatives.




    So I think the guy with the turbo ZJ had the right idea. The intercooler was tastefully placed. I'm sure it gets plenty of air flow up underneath there, and it's away from the engine bay heat enough, and the plumbing looks minimal (compared to what you have to do on a WRX/STi above) lol

    Spearco is a good brand intercooler. We're talking $800+ for a good one of theirs. They don't mess around. Many have had success in the Subaru world I came from with eBay intercoolers for 1/3 price lol

  24. #49
    Banned Wrinklechops's Avatar
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    For those feeling a little adventurous, Spearco can do a custom fabricated intercooler for us with lots of options when it comes to inlet/outlet options...



    I think with the right dimensions though, an eBay intercooler would be just fine for our needs.

  25. #50
    RallyJeep GO
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    Turbos definitely have less parasitic loss then S/Cers, so you can build more power for a given amount of boost. Plus, they build better low-end, so they're more useful if you tow anything, or for picking up quickly without a downshift.

    Someday, after college when my 5.9 is no longer a DD, and I have some money, I plan to build a 408 for it. I ultimately plan to twin turbo it (one small-ish turbo on each cylinder bank feeding a common intercooler). This will let me use the smallest turbos that will collectively push enough air to make 10-12 psi of boost while staying in their efficiency peak, giving a nice, quick spool and good low end.

    That should make for an awesome kick getting on the highway with it , especially considering I get plenty of shocked looks from guys in BMWs when I open it up on an on ramp and rip away from them with the engine bone stock (around here, everyone does 40-45 up the ramp, and then has trouble merging into 60+ mph traffic )
    1998 ZJ 5.9 Limited - Deep Slate
    Mods: Big trans cooler, 231 swap, Indy MA-X heads prepped by IMM, Comp 20-744-9 cam, 1.7 HS roller rockers, 52mm TB, Airgap manifold, DT headers and full 3" exhaust, SCT tune homebrewed by me, Martin Saine valve body, B&M tranny pan, magic suspension made from unicorn tears, power steering cooler, lots of lighting mods

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