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  1. #1
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    Advice on top end build?

    Pretty sure I have a burnt exhaust valve and I'm getting tired of the misfire, there goes SC budget. Thinking of going with IMM for around $1500 since the cheapest I can find assembled 2.02 heads is around $1200. The IMM heads come machined for .625 lift with beehive springs and good valves. Flow very well too, 271 cfm at .550 I think.

    Any suggestions on different parts to use or areas I can save money at?

    Here's where I'm at so far:
    $1600 IMM heads
    $325 1.7 HS rockers
    $350 212 .564 110 cam
    $600 M1 intake
    $505 58mm TB
    $150 2bbl to 4bbl adapter kit
    $100 Double chain/tensioner
    $150 Pushrods
    $70 Ford 26lb 715 injectors
    $100 ARP head bolts/intake gaskets
    $50 1121G head gaskets
    $200 Lifters

    Total $4200 FML
    Last edited by THEhomelessONE; 03-24-2017 at 11:20 AM.

  2. #2
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    you can find cheaper HS 1.7 RRs, send these guys an email:

    john.southeastrt@verizon.net
    shanons@centurylink.net


    probably they will have also the same heads and cam you are looking for, but for less
    98 ZG 318 limited: np 242 swap,dana30hp swap,aussie locker, shift kit, optima red, 170lbs reduction, 5.9 vents, kn air filter, air ram, 1.7 HS RRs, SCT 93 oct tune, magnaflow muffler 12255, magnaflow hi-flo cat, spectre air hat, 2x52mm tb, 5.9 efan swap, ngk fr5-1 plugs, mopar perf wires, new cap 'n rot, maxxperf coil, iat relocation, roof lights, pirelli scorpions on masitaly 16x7 rims ET=0, ome HD coils +2",rubic exp +2"shocks, skyjacker ss, rubic exp adjustable front arms, jks rear+procomp front trackbar, prothane engine n tranny mounts, prothane sway bars bushings, drilled n slotted rotors, aeronautical front brake lines, purple led into front grill, hella h4s 100/55w, osarm h3s 55w.
    my channel
    https://www.youtube.com/TommyVercettism/videos

  3. #3
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    Thanks for the contacts!

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by THEhomelessONE View Post
    Thanks for the contacts!
    no problem, let me know if they can help.
    98 ZG 318 limited: np 242 swap,dana30hp swap,aussie locker, shift kit, optima red, 170lbs reduction, 5.9 vents, kn air filter, air ram, 1.7 HS RRs, SCT 93 oct tune, magnaflow muffler 12255, magnaflow hi-flo cat, spectre air hat, 2x52mm tb, 5.9 efan swap, ngk fr5-1 plugs, mopar perf wires, new cap 'n rot, maxxperf coil, iat relocation, roof lights, pirelli scorpions on masitaly 16x7 rims ET=0, ome HD coils +2",rubic exp +2"shocks, skyjacker ss, rubic exp adjustable front arms, jks rear+procomp front trackbar, prothane engine n tranny mounts, prothane sway bars bushings, drilled n slotted rotors, aeronautical front brake lines, purple led into front grill, hella h4s 100/55w, osarm h3s 55w.
    my channel
    https://www.youtube.com/TommyVercettism/videos

  5. #5
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    What's the bottom end in your motor? If it's stock, I'd stick to 6200 or so as max rpm. Have IMM mill the heads down for 60cc chambers and run the Mopar thin head gaskets for the compression bump. On a stock bottom end, .512" lift clears the pistons fine with that setup (on my motor). You'd want to check P2V clearance to go higher.

    For a cam, the Comp 20-746-9 with 1.7 rockers should work nicely. .544" lift at the valves, pretty fast ramp rates and not a ton of duration. I'm running the smaller 20-744-9 with 1.7s and it's about as docile as stock but with a lot more top end (the bigger cam would open up the top end a little more in trade for a slightly weaker bottom end and slightly choppy idle). 6200 rpm rev limiter should be good with that combo as long as the valve springs are up to the task. Mine spins 6k no problem on the provided springs from IMM.

    As a warning, any 2bbl throttle body that's not one of the $$$$$$ 55mm or 58mm units WILL be too small and will restrict power with this combo. If you can make up a linkage for it, a 4bbl can be done cheaper.

    As far as the intake manifold goes, if you can snag a 4bbl M1, do that. Otherwise, the Hughes intake will be fine.

    You'll want 30# injectors for this to make sure you've got enough headroom.

    As a note on pushrods, get a checking pushrod and make sure you have calipers or another accurate method of measuring pushrod length. Use that to figure out what length pushrods you'll need when you get stuff assembled and then order the pushrods (overnight shipping from Summit comes in handy for this).

    That combo (especially with headers, a 4bbl M1 and big enough TB) should get somewhere close to 450hp. I'm not sure it'll quite get there with a stock bottom end, but it's about as good as you'll get on a stock bottm end with decent driveability and without having to run a solid roller cam.

    Do you have headers on the Jeep? If so, what's the exhaust behind them? You'll really want either dual 2.5" or a 3.5" single after the y-pipe for this power level. The common 3" single will restrict power a bit (which means you'd have to make a custom y-pipe, as the DT one is 3" output).
    1998 ZJ 5.9 Limited - Deep Slate
    Mods: Big trans cooler, 231 swap, Indy MA-X heads prepped by IMM, Comp 20-744-9 cam, 1.7 HS roller rockers, 52mm TB, Airgap manifold, DT headers and full 3" exhaust, SCT tune homebrewed by me, Martin Saine valve body, B&M tranny pan, magic suspension made from unicorn tears, power steering cooler, lots of lighting mods

  6. #6
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    Rolf Sheffey has 4bbl M1's on the FB 5.9 classified group. The carb M1 4bbl is still available, and he ports the injector bosses. Does fuel rails and TB's too.

  7. #7
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    Yes bottom end is stock. Most I'd do is some bracing and new bolts. I was thinking 218/224 .605/.600, figured it would clear the piston since it's less duration but I really don't know, haven't been able to find any solid data. I know the EQ heads valve to retainer clearance only allowed .512 lift OOTB. Still waiting to hear from comp or IMM on a cam. Was reading somewhere less duration and higher lift is best for lower compression engines, makes it run like a smaller cam, retain low end tq better but worse on valve train.

    I'd have to weigh out my options for the TB but thanks for letting me know about their limitations. Yeah would prefer M1 but I hate the idea of paying double for something used than it was new. Yeah they're only like $15 for a checking pushrod, will do.

    I have the 3" Kolak kit, 3" straight through Magnaflow vs the chambered Flowmaster and DT headers. That damn 3" exhaust still rattles from time to time, I don't think I'd go larger. Hopefully that Magnaflow will be worth a noticeable improvement. Really appreciate the help and thanks for the cam specs!!

    Lol also I noticed your suspension is made from unicorn tears? Does that mean my stock axles will most likely grenade and I should start saving up for something else? Hate how expensive and hard to find axles can be, but I really like launching from a dig.

    Oh cool so he mods the carb M1's to work with injectors? Or am I reading that wrong? Lol if so this is the first I've heard of it. Will check it out thanks!
    Last edited by THEhomelessONE; 01-09-2017 at 09:57 PM.

  8. #8
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    Yes, shorter duration and lots of lift is good. But you can only go so far before it's time to go for solid lifters and you also can end up needing very stiff valve springs (which means beefier rocker setup with bigger studs, etc.). And it does beat up valvetrain parts faster. The Comp 20-746-9 I linked is 216/224 @ .050 and will have .539" total lift. Some cams will do better on piston to valve clearance than others, but I'd say anything over .512" and it's a good idea to measure (.544" lift has been done on a stock bottom end, but I'm not sure about with shaved heads and thinner HGs).

    And the axles are the most stock part of my suspension. It's just most of the stuff between them and the Jeep that isn't stock.

    And yeah, Rolf drills the injector ports into the carb M1s. IIRC, the bosses are cast in, they just aren't drilled on the carb versions.
    1998 ZJ 5.9 Limited - Deep Slate
    Mods: Big trans cooler, 231 swap, Indy MA-X heads prepped by IMM, Comp 20-744-9 cam, 1.7 HS roller rockers, 52mm TB, Airgap manifold, DT headers and full 3" exhaust, SCT tune homebrewed by me, Martin Saine valve body, B&M tranny pan, magic suspension made from unicorn tears, power steering cooler, lots of lighting mods

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    Definitely don't want to go with a solid roller. Too much of a pain disconnecting AC lines just to take valve cover off. On Hotrod's article they used a 230/236 cam with .576/.571 lift on a stock bottom end magnum. Didn't mention anything about piston to valve clearance but maybe I missed it. I'll try to find some threads where folks have done a clay test. Very glad to hear about availability of the M1.

    Comparing the two dyno tests Hotrod did, it doesn't seem worth it to go with the more aggressive cam. They used better heads, which flowed about 25cfm better from .500 to .600 lift. Up to 4200 rpm the milder cam is making better torque, about 30 TQ more at 3000 rpm. Aluminum rockers, hardened pushrods, single plane, better heads and gained a peak of around 40 more hp/tq. That 25 cfm per head is a theoretical 50 HP gain no? Seems like I'd be better off going with the milder cam with long duration but it doesn't make sense to me how well it did compared to the higher lift setup with better heads and intake. Wish they would've used the same heads. If anything I thought the higher lift cam would have had better low end since the heads flowed more and the cam would bleed off less cyl pressure. Man I'm confused lol. Thanks for letting me pick at your brains, my OCD won't let me rest haha.

  10. #10
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    The higher lift cam will generally help low end, but you can only get so much lift before you have to increase the duration, especially with hydraulic lifters (you can only throw the valves open so fast). The cam I suggested is probably about as much as the stock bottom end can take advantage of, as you won't get much above 9.5 - 9.7:1 compression even with shaved heads and thinner HGs.

    As a note, with some careful wiggling, it's totally possible to get the valve covers off without disconnecting the A/C lines. Heck, it's possible to pull the heads without discharging the A/C.
    1998 ZJ 5.9 Limited - Deep Slate
    Mods: Big trans cooler, 231 swap, Indy MA-X heads prepped by IMM, Comp 20-744-9 cam, 1.7 HS roller rockers, 52mm TB, Airgap manifold, DT headers and full 3" exhaust, SCT tune homebrewed by me, Martin Saine valve body, B&M tranny pan, magic suspension made from unicorn tears, power steering cooler, lots of lighting mods

  11. #11
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    Yeah I was wondering what the limits of the stock lifters were, kept reading that they're pretty good as is. Haha so Comp recommended a 210/220 .512/.512 cam, .544 with 1.7. I think all he read was "Jeep" and "4500lbs" then picked out that cam. Maybe IMM will help out too, haven't heard back yet.

    I could't figure it out and didn't want to put too much pressure on the lines so just disconnected them. Was the night before new years eve though and I really had to figure out what was going on with the engine, so not much patience.

    Have you ever dyno'd your Jeep? Very few dyno results from what I've been able to find. BMW/Merc forums are obsessed with dynos, rarely ever find ET times.
    Last edited by THEhomelessONE; 01-11-2017 at 09:20 PM.

  12. #12
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    I haven't dynoed mine. It's in the plans for "at some point", just haven't gotten to it. Once I get the 4bbl TB on it, I'm figuring I'll see around 300 hp at the wheels (probably 370 - 380 at the crank). The bigger cam you're planning will help a bit.

    The cam Comp suggested sounds like the 20-604-9. IIRC, that one has a bit slower lift rates than the 744/745/746 series of cams. Wouldn't be bad with 1.7s though. For comparison, the 20-604-9 has 264/274 advertised duration and 210/220 at .050". The 20-746-9 has 265/273 advertised duration (almost the same), but is 216/224 at .050", indicating a faster ramp rate. And it's got about the same lift and a slightly wider LSA, so it should have similar low end torque but make a bit more total power and give a slightly wider powerband.

    The 20-746-9 has a slightly smaller intake / exhaust split too, which is fine. You don't need the massive split if you're running headers, it's mostly to help out with stock manifolds.

    And yeah, the stock lifters are fine. I'd put in a new set, but there's no need to upgrade to anything fancy. Mine have lived through many trips to 6k rpm over the almost 100k miles they've been in the motor.
    1998 ZJ 5.9 Limited - Deep Slate
    Mods: Big trans cooler, 231 swap, Indy MA-X heads prepped by IMM, Comp 20-744-9 cam, 1.7 HS roller rockers, 52mm TB, Airgap manifold, DT headers and full 3" exhaust, SCT tune homebrewed by me, Martin Saine valve body, B&M tranny pan, magic suspension made from unicorn tears, power steering cooler, lots of lighting mods

  13. #13
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    Definitely post results when you do! I wonder if Rolf would make a linkage for me if I bought the 4bbl M1 and TB from him.

    Have a feeling that Hotrod build with XFI lobes not making more power might have had to do with the lifters bleeding down. My lifters have almost 180k on them so I'll most likely get some new ones. Think I'd be okay if I kept the stock rockers?
    What do you think of this Hughes regrind compared to the cams above? SER1822ML-14

  14. #14
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    I wouldn't keep the stock rockers. 1.7s will help you with faster lift rates, and I dunno how much spring pressure the stock rockers will be happy with before they start to wear quickly.

    That Hughes cam looks like it should do the job as well. If you go with that one, I'd measure P2V clearance with the stock rockers, and then if you have enough extra clearance, order 1.7 rockers, if not, get 1.6s. The stock springs on the IMM heads meet the Hughes specs as well.
    1998 ZJ 5.9 Limited - Deep Slate
    Mods: Big trans cooler, 231 swap, Indy MA-X heads prepped by IMM, Comp 20-744-9 cam, 1.7 HS roller rockers, 52mm TB, Airgap manifold, DT headers and full 3" exhaust, SCT tune homebrewed by me, Martin Saine valve body, B&M tranny pan, magic suspension made from unicorn tears, power steering cooler, lots of lighting mods

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    Makes sense. If I'm spending over $300 on rockers might as well spend a couple hundred more for some shaft mounted ones. Not a big hit in the grand scheme of things. Thinking of going with hughes 5007 lifters too, maybe let me take advantage of a more aggressive cam? Do you have any spring pressure ratings on the PAC springs IMM heads come with? I couldn't find anything a few days ago.

    Slippery slope planning this stuff out. So anything over 6k rpm with the type of cams I'm interested in would mean going with a solid lifter setup you think?

    Lack of budget head options are whats keeping me from cheaping out on stuff. If there were decent assembled heads around $600-800 then budget build all the way.

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    Lol if it's not too much trouble could someone paste a link for that FB 5.9 classifieds group? I didn't see it in the classifieds section here. Thank you!

  17. #17
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    1998 ZJ 5.9 Limited - Deep Slate
    Mods: Big trans cooler, 231 swap, Indy MA-X heads prepped by IMM, Comp 20-744-9 cam, 1.7 HS roller rockers, 52mm TB, Airgap manifold, DT headers and full 3" exhaust, SCT tune homebrewed by me, Martin Saine valve body, B&M tranny pan, magic suspension made from unicorn tears, power steering cooler, lots of lighting mods

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    Well my request for the FB group has been pending for days now. Any idea how much he sells the M1 intake with injector holes drilled out or throttle bodies if they're a better bang for buck vs what hughes has? Will I still have a place to connect the MAP sensor on the carb intake? Guessing he machines that bit too?

    Heads flow only 4cfm more from .500" to .550". Don't think I should go for the HS rockers either, won't be revving more than 6200 rpm and haven't heard people complaining of the stock ones. Trying to cut some costs, a bit much for me to spend at the moment. Emailed IMM again on a cam but I think I'm going with the 218/222 114 LSA from Hughes. Thanks again for all your help!!

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    So I heard back from Rolf, very nice guy has really been helping me out.

    I'd rather go for the M1 with a 4bbl TB but that also means I need the fuel rails for a total around $1200. Want the fuel rails anyway since stockers look like trash. His 53mm TB would only be a hundred or so cheaper but it would be plug and play.

    Here's my problem, really want 4bbl but I hate the idea of having to figure out the throttle linkage myself. I see this as a huge safety item. Having throttles jam on me unexpectedly once on a motorcycle and once in a car, it's not fun. Is there anyone making a nice kit? Or stuff I can buy online that should work without issues? I don't want to custom machine stuff but also don't want it held together by shoe string.

    Do you guys think his 53mm TB would flow enough or should I get something from F&B? F&B mentions the 58mm is for strokers only and 55mm for only highly modded 5.9's. But their 55mm TB still flows just under 1000cfm, less than Hughes so I'm really lost here on exactly what size TB to go for.

    Or should I just shut up, go for Rolf's 53mm TB since it should be more than enough, M1, fuel rails and start the build already?

    A lot of money for me to spend on something I'm not too sure about haha, thanks guys.

  20. #20
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    I thought you can use the stock fuel rails with the M1, just need to make brackets to mount them?

    A 52 or 53mm will be way too small. With a 52mm on my setup, I see about 3.5" of vacuum at WOT by 5500 rpm (IIRC from when I checked). Getting that down to under 1" would be worth a solid 20+ hp at high rpm.

    The lazy (but expensive) solution to the TB problem is run a 2bbl TB (on whatever manifold, use an adapter if it's a 4bbl M1 or an air gap) and spend up for one of the 55 or 58mm TBs. If you can figure out a good linkage bracket / setup, the 4bbl route is cheaper.

    Also, remember, TB flow is tested at 1.5" of vacuum, just like a 4bbl carb. Running a TB that flows significantly more than the numbers say you need will make for less vacuum (and more power).
    1998 ZJ 5.9 Limited - Deep Slate
    Mods: Big trans cooler, 231 swap, Indy MA-X heads prepped by IMM, Comp 20-744-9 cam, 1.7 HS roller rockers, 52mm TB, Airgap manifold, DT headers and full 3" exhaust, SCT tune homebrewed by me, Martin Saine valve body, B&M tranny pan, magic suspension made from unicorn tears, power steering cooler, lots of lighting mods

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    Hopefully you can reply soon as I need to make my order tonight for the discount but do I need to use his adapter? The 53mm TB is only 170 plus 40 core but he says the 2bbl to 4bbl adapter is 130 if I want to use stock rails? Is there a cheaper adapter I can use? I'm willing to go for the 55mm or 58mm F&B if I can save some money on the adapter and fuel rails? Thank you comp!

    I'm not comfortable with making a linkage for a 4bbl and most 4bbl TB's are getting near as expensive as F&B's.
    Last edited by THEhomelessONE; 01-29-2017 at 11:26 PM.

  22. #22
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    Was getting sleepy so I just ordered the 4bbl M1. I'll go with the 55mm or 58mm F&B.

    Any suggestions on what 2bbl to 4bbl adapter kit to use? What do I do about the stock fuel rails? Recommendations on cheaper aftermarket fuel rails, especially if it will help me in using a cheaper adapter?

    When this build is over I will do a burnout in your honor Comptiger5000 lol always helping with my crazy questions on this forum, thanks.

  23. #23
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    I've never dealt with running a 2bbl on an M1 with an adapter and I've still got stock fuel rails, so unfortunately, I'm not much help with those questions
    1998 ZJ 5.9 Limited - Deep Slate
    Mods: Big trans cooler, 231 swap, Indy MA-X heads prepped by IMM, Comp 20-744-9 cam, 1.7 HS roller rockers, 52mm TB, Airgap manifold, DT headers and full 3" exhaust, SCT tune homebrewed by me, Martin Saine valve body, B&M tranny pan, magic suspension made from unicorn tears, power steering cooler, lots of lighting mods

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    Haha missed that you were running an Airgap, was right there in your sig. I'm really going to try to put HS rockers back on the list. Don't think I can help going over budget anymore.

    I never heard back from Brian at IMM, will try to give him a call during work. I've been reading around and it seems like I should run a cam with more exhaust duration vs intake. Like a 218/228 instead of the 218/222? Does this sound right? Will try to find what the cons are to running more exhaust duration.

    Most people with these engines run dual exhaust so they have plenty of flow. But majority of us Jeepers have a single 3". I'm going with a 4bbl M1 and 58mm TB, but stuck with the 3" single exhaust. Keep thinking I have to use a different cam now.

  25. #25
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    More exhaust duration can help make up for crappy manifolds or downpipes, so with headers, a small split should be just fine.

    For exhaust, if you can go to a single 3.5", you'll be better off. A single 3" does restrict power a bit. Or run dual 2.5" next to each other down one side. If you want to use an off the shelf tailpipe, keep it big until the tailpipe, then shrink to a single 3" (exhaust is cooler that far back and you'll get less penalty from the smaller tailpipe).
    1998 ZJ 5.9 Limited - Deep Slate
    Mods: Big trans cooler, 231 swap, Indy MA-X heads prepped by IMM, Comp 20-744-9 cam, 1.7 HS roller rockers, 52mm TB, Airgap manifold, DT headers and full 3" exhaust, SCT tune homebrewed by me, Martin Saine valve body, B&M tranny pan, magic suspension made from unicorn tears, power steering cooler, lots of lighting mods

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