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  1. #26
    im super special x10radsponge's Avatar
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    Question.... I know that some are less then 20 dollars. But would a remote (wired) start switch help in eliminating some components? Will they even work on computer controlled vehicles? http://www.autozone.com/test-scan-an...starter-switch

    Maybe to simplistic of a thought but if you can start it with this, then the problem would be what is bypassed (upstream or downstream (confusing myself)) of the remote starter. Dash, harness, sensors...

  2. #27
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    Actually if I was to decide that I don't want to diagnose the actual problem I could install a momentary switch by jumping one of the starter relay pins to the plus side of the battery as John pointed out and call it a day. Wow a no key necessary Niner. Easy to steal as well.

    I'm just stumped where to look next. I'm fried as well.

  3. #28
    Forum CONDUCTOR Man Z88Z's Avatar
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    Actually Tony, that wouldn't make it easier to steal.

    That 'jumping it at the relay' trick I mentioned would only cause it to crank - it shouldn't actually fire and run unless the key was on too. - I think, lol. I don't think that circuit feeds back into anything that would energize the PCM etc, I'll look into it but I'm almost certain it doesn't....
    So you'd still need the key in the ignition to start it, so any would-be thief would still have to remove or damage the ignition switch to power everything up and to disable the steering wheel lock


    Still though, it's gotta be something simpler than that. Worst case scenario (theoretically) is there's a break in that Yellow* wire somewhere between the ignition switch and the PDC.
    (* Wire is Yellow from ignition switch to C233, Yellow/Red from C233 to the PDC)


    Sending pm...
    Last edited by Z88Z; 05-22-2015 at 09:51 AM.

  4. #29
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    John if I were to not find the original no start cause would it be Hoyle to wire in a momentary push button switch to bypass the ignition switch? Would any problems be caused if I left out the ignition relay? Should I keep the relay in place but add the necessary wiring for the momentary switch?

  5. #30
    Member csouers's Avatar
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    The ignition switch is not/was never the problem. Your test confirmed that. In the Run-Start position you had 12v at 4 lines; 2x 12V from the battery, 1 line to power the computer/ignition during startup, and 1 line to the starter relay. Everything there is working fine.

    It'll be a PITA, but finding the broken wire is very doable. My cousin had the same problem on his 97 5.2 recently. He had a shop fix it, but it was the same thing; broken yellow wire. Do you tilt your steering wheel back and forth every time you get in the Jeep?

  6. #31
    Forum CONDUCTOR Man Z88Z's Avatar
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    Well yes Tony, you can do it that way - but lets try a few things first if you can spare the time.


    However, if you were to add a switch for the starter, this is the way I'd go....


    Return your ignition back to the way it was, so all electrical functions are back to normal except you'll still have the no-start. Might as well throw your original ignition switch back in there so the keys match.

    Buy a spool of wire (about #12 gauge preferably) and some generic parts store male blade pins/spade connectors that fit the female pins/connectors in the starter relay socket. Pretty sure those are just the "normal" size (usually blue) spade connectors you find in every parts store.

    Add wires to two of the male connectors and run those two wires into the cabin to your momentary switch. Plug one into slot 6 (battery voltage) and the other one into slot 7 - the wire to the starter solenoid.
    (...Alternatively, you could just run one of the wires right from the battery or from a 12V source in the cabin - to the momentary switch, and just run one wire from there to slot 7 in the relay socket.

    This is basically the same trick as placing that jumper across slots 6 and 7 with the relay out, except you have control of it from in the cabin.


    I still say there's a simpler problem here and we should find that.




    EDIT: What Chris says here Tony - and that's a good place to start looking too Chris!



    Quote Originally Posted by csouers View Post
    The ignition switch is not/was never the problem.

    ... broken yellow wire. Do you tilt your steering wheel back and forth every time you get in the Jeep?
    Last edited by Z88Z; 05-22-2015 at 11:29 AM.

  7. #32
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    Okay a friend of mine checked the relay socket and found no power coming to one of the pins in the socket. We want to remove the PDC box and check underneath at the loom connection to the box. I see two lower nuts and another bolt at the top. Is that how to remove the PDC?

  8. #33
    Forum CONDUCTOR Man Z88Z's Avatar
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    Actually I think it's a bit easier than that Tony.

    IIRC if you bend back the tab things on the side the PDC housing should lift right off that bracket.



    I'd look for continuity from the ignition switch down to the C233 connector, which is under the dash to the left of the steering column. Not a fun place to work unless you're a contortionist though, lol.

    From the C233 connector, I'm pretty sure that wire runs all the way down the driver's side of the Jeep, across the front bumper reinforcement, and back up the passenger side to the PDC.
    That's a heckuva lot of inconvenient areas to check though.

    Maybe look for any areas where the harness wasn't secured, was moving against the body, etc.

    Check any areas that had work done, any drilling or whatever. Did it ever get hit or did you do any work in that area?

    Also check the battery area and make sure there's no acid leak, corrosion, etc.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z88Z View Post
    Actually I think it's a bit easier than that Tony.

    IIRC if you bend back the tab things on the side the PDC housing should lift right off that bracket.



    I'd look for continuity from the ignition switch down to the C233 connector, which is under the dash to the left of the steering column. Not a fun place to work unless you're a contortionist though, lol.

    From the C233 connector, I'm pretty sure that wire runs all the way down the driver's side of the Jeep, across the front bumper reinforcement, and back up the passenger side to the PDC.
    That's a heckuva lot of inconvenient areas to check though.

    Maybe look for any areas where the harness wasn't secured, was moving against the body, etc.

    Check any areas that had work done, any drilling or whatever. Did it ever get hit or did you do any work in that area?

    Also check the battery area and make sure there's no acid leak, corrosion, etc.
    That will be today's project.

  10. #35
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    Weird that you would have this problem after a long sit. Like z88z said I would try to narrow down where to start looking for a broken wire wherever you have installed or tinkered with anything, even before the no start issue.

    Like csoures said, tilting the wheel can cause an issue with the ignition wires.

    Two uncles of mine have ram 1500's, one 5.2 and one 5.9. The 5.2 had a no start issue because my aunt and uncle shared the truck and constantly changed the tilt of the steering wheel. Eventually it would only start with the wheel in one certain position. The 5.9 had the battery fall out of the tray, yanking on wires and splattering acid everytwhere inside the engine bay. That one was a bitch to figure out but it ended up being a broken wire stemming from the battery incident.

    In my search for the cure engine grounds kept coming up I my searches, even though that ended up not being the cause of my problem
    Last edited by MurdaJ; 05-24-2015 at 08:10 AM.

  11. #36
    Forum CONDUCTOR Man Z88Z's Avatar
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    The more I think about it, the more that steering wheel idea makes sense. You presumably did some moving of the steering wheel when you did your wood inlay steering wheel project, yes?

    First thing I'd try Tony - hold the key in the start position and move the wheel up and down. If you hear anything from the starter at all, that points to the yellow wire being broken there. Although it could be broken enough that it might not make any contact at all.
    (LOL - that takes a bit of coordination or an extra hand, as you have to press the knob/lever thing, hold the key, and move the steering wheel, all at the same time. Maybe tie the lever off or whatever?)



    You're looking for some area that sees movement or wear, or had some thing change because work was done in that area, or possibly changed while the Jeep was sitting. Being that you're in a dry area I wouldn't expect corrosion like you might find in damper climes.

    So besides possible leaking and/or corrosion in the battery area, and barring other work being done - just remember that's a LOOONG wire. Forward from the PDC, by the battery, across the bumper support, up the driver's side inner fender, and through the firewall to the C233 connector - so if you've done any work in any of those areas, check that out. Barring that I think the steering wheel thing might be the culprit

    At/inside the PDC is less likely option as nothing much happens in that area.
    Last edited by Z88Z; 05-24-2015 at 07:19 AM.

  12. #37
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    I appreciate all of the suggestions y'all have give but for the life of me I can't find the culprit.

    I'm considering installing a starter button which will operate with the key in the "start" position. I can start the Jeep by jumping the two pins in the starter relay socket shown in the photo. That's where the button switch legs would connect.


    DSC07041.jpg

    So here's another question. Can I build this little switch circuit as a stand alone or must I install a relay in the new circuit?

    I can purchase a start button alone or I can get something like this which is a complete kit including a relay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-Car-Engi...6873b2&vxp=mtr

    As an aside yesterday I started the Jeep and let it warm up and circulate the fluids. According to my UltraGauge the engine never went into closed loop. Could removal of the starter relay have something to do with this or is it a separate issue?

  13. #38
    Member csouers's Avatar
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    Just run a wire that provides 12v to whichever pin should have 12v with the key turned to Run-Start. The ground side of the latch would still safetied by the NSS, so it still won't allow the starter to be engaged in gear.

    If you go that far, I'd just run it, then splice it into the ignition harness on that yellow wire. Sort of janky, but perfectly functional and it would put you back to stock functionality. Also, better than a random switch in my opinion. Obviously, you'd need to find a way to get the wire into the cabin.

    PS. Your other question. No, it would not need to have a relay. It only powers the small relay latch, not the actual power sent from the battery to the solenoid to engage the clutch and starter motor.
    Last edited by csouers; 05-25-2015 at 07:11 PM.

  14. #39
    Forum CONDUCTOR Man Z88Z's Avatar
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    Do me a favor Tony... That yellow wire at the ignition switch - it has a suspicious little bulge in it about a quarter inch back from the connector.
    Grab the wire on the other side of that bulge and push it hard towards the connector and try turning the key to start and see if you get anything from the starter with the relay back in. I'm thinking that could be the break in the wire that they mentioned.


    But what Chris said - that's another much safer way to do it. Really no need to add a starter button into the system, and if you sent power to pin #7 like I said, it would go to the starter solenoid directly, and you'd lose the safety of the NSS switch

    You said you have power coming out to the yellow wire when the key is in the start position - so instead of adding a switch and running two wires, just cut your yellow wire and run one wire from the ignition switch side out to the PDC and join it to the yellow/red wire there. I can even see the yellow/red wire peeking out of the PDC in your pic in post 37.
    So you run that one wire and your electrical system will basically function as stock - everything operating off the key.

    Another way to do it - I don't love this idea but it would leave the harness intact for future repair - you could use those mickey mouse scotch locks near the ignition switch and out at the PDC and just splice in a wire that way. NOTE: that would only work if it's a break in the wire. If it's a spot that grounded out you'd still have the problem and you'd have to cut it.
    I don't like the idea of scotch locks either but in this case that wire is only carrying the voltage to trigger the relay so it's not that much of a load on it.




    Before you do that though, I still say you should at least trace the yellow wire down to the C233 connector and see if there's power there as that section of it is fairly easy to reach. If you have power in and out of the C233 then the break (or ground) can be anywhere in that long (10 - 12 ft?) of harness and at that point it might be easier to run the wire than to find the problem in the harness.

  15. #40
    im super special x10radsponge's Avatar
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    Ok here is my second go at helping. I had the same issue on my villager and could start it using a jumper like yours. It had to be the switch (Neutral safety) I though as I could start it in any gear then. It ended up being a short where the wires entered the plug (harness side) of the switch. This was found after a new battery, starter, ignition and all the other crap that came out of the parts shotgun.

  16. #41
    Forum CONDUCTOR Man Z88Z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by x10radsponge View Post
    .... It ended up being a short where the wires entered the plug (harness side) of the switch. This was found after a new battery, starter, ignition and all the other crap that came out of the parts shotgun.

    Was it shorted to ground, or just broken?


    I didn't think about the "broken wire from moving the steering wheel" thing until csouers and MurdaJ posted it, but that makes good sense.

    In his pic in post #22 you can see a tiny bulge in the yellow wire right by the connector. Could be just a bend but it could also be where a break is.



    Tony - just another thought on this since Kevin mentioned a ground.....

    With the starter relay removed, grab your test light or meter and connect to a good 12v source. Put the other end to the yellow wire from either the ignition switch end or the pin #8 at the PDC.

    If you get a light or 12v reading it means there's a short to ground somewhere in that wire - and unless it happens to be somewhere convenient like between the steering wheel and the firewall under the dash area, it's probably going to be easier to just run a new wire from the yellow at the ignition switch and the yellow/red at the PDC.

    That's really the same for if it's a broken wire, but if it's a grounded wire you definitely need to cut it at both ends to isolate it.....

  17. #42
    im super special x10radsponge's Avatar
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    Broken right where the wire goes into the plug. Grabbed some from PAP and put them in place. All's good to date.

  18. #43
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    I'm baaaaaaaaaaaak! Had an auto electrical tech come out to the house today. It took him less than an hour to find that someone previous to me had installed an aftermarket alarm. Some of the components were hidden up under the dash. He cleaned up the mess and she started right up. Now to begin all of the resurrecting of the Jeep after sitting for a year and a half. I'm so pumped!!!!!

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