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  1. #1
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    Ms. Plat won't start

    Well I'm feeling a bit like an idiot at the moment. My Niner has been sitting in storage for the last 11 months without having been started. Yesterday I charged the battery and nothing. Today I took the battery to Autozone for a checkup. The cells are good and they gave it a full charge. I got home and properly cleaned the terminals connectors and posts. All of my interior lights, pillar pod gauges, accessories and gauge cluster light up just fine. The odd thing is that there is no cranking. Not one tiny little sound coming from the starter. It's just like there is no starter on the engine. What would y'all recommend I check first? Thanks fellas!

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    Tap the starter lightly with a hammer

    - - - Updated - - -

    While you're down there take a gander at the starter wires

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    Will do. Thanks!

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    Great advice!

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    Member dukefromthecave's Avatar
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    Check for 12 volts DC at starter solenoid

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    Forum CONDUCTOR Man Z88Z's Avatar
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    Any luck on this Tony?


    All of the above, and most likely it's the starter, but....

    I'm lazy. First thing I'd do is turn the key to the on position, give it a second for all the relays to quiet down - then turn to the start position and listen for the starter relay to click. Probably best done with the hood up, and maybe reaching through the window to work the key. If it's noisy where the Jeep is or if it's hard to hear you might want to recruit Lucy to work the key part while you stand over the PDC (relay/fuse box) and listen.

    If you don't hear anything it could be a bad starter relay. Another way to confirm that - pull the starter relay and put a jumper wire across the terminals for the starter. If it starts it might be a bad relay, if not probably a bad starter.

    I can't remember if the starter relay is the same as the others. If it is you could swap one in and see if it starts - if it does it's a bad relay. If not you could possibly have some wiring problems, possibly due to rodent intrusion (see below)

    Then back to the tapping the starter with a hammer like Murda said. That could possibly work on an inert (non-powered) starter but it's much, much more likely to work if someone is turning the key when you do it. If you don't have a helper available just make two really long jumpers that you can reach from under the Jeep and put them in across the starter relay terminals. Position them in one hand so you can make/break contact of the two wires when you need to, then tap the starter while they're in contact.

    So if the tapping works it's the starter.
    If it was just some carbon spots the brushes happened to land on, you might find it starts 9 times out of 10 - if it doesn't happen to land on those carbon spots again! But most likely you're going to want to replace it so you don't risk getting stuck somewhere.





    Quote Originally Posted by MurdaJ View Post
    .............While you're down there take a gander at the starter wires
    That too.

    Look for signs of rodent intrusion. They like to chew stuff - like wires

    For storage I've heard mothballs will keep them away.

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    Well I am going to tackle this project later today. My greatest problem is that my old bones are beginning to protest against me lying on the garage floor. It's embarrassing when someone watches me take 5 minutes to get up from a prone position. It's a bitch growing old.

    I will try all that has been suggested to me.

    The moth balls are I believe a good idea. I captured several hundred moths when Ms. Plat went into storage but for the life of me I couldn't harvest their balls.... ba-da-boom

  8. #8
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    Finally got off or should I say on my ass and scootched under the Jeep. 13.5 volts is flowing to the starter, the relay is good as are all the fuses. Tapped with a ball peen. No start I pulled the starter and headed of to the Zone to buy a new one. I actually hoped my old one was FUBARed. They put my starter on their test machine and low and behold it's good! Tomorrow I'll reinstall it. What should I check next? Thanks.

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    Forum CONDUCTOR Man Z88Z's Avatar
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    Tony, can you describe the testing in more detail? I can't tell exactly how much you tested.


    Dumb question, but did you have some holding the key in the start position when you whacked the starter? That's "generally" the only way it will work.

    If that works it's usually a matter of it getting random carbon spots on the windings. The whack dislodges it a bit of maybe bumps the windings a tad to where the voltage now flows to the windings. It may start, and it may start a bunch more times, but eventually it's going to stop with the windings on a dead spot again resulting in another no-start.
    It could also be the brushes sticking and not advancing as they wear. The whack will dislodge them but they may stick again.

    So, removing the starter and moving it around may have the same effect as whacking it. The windings or the brushes may have moved and lo and behold it works (for now)


    If you did have someone turning the key when you whacked it, it's something else, LOL


    How did you test the relay?

    Quickest test of the whole system would be to put the volt meter on the small wire on the starter and have someone turn the key - make sure that's getting voltage at the starter itself when you're trying to start it.

    If that wire doesn't show voltage it's a matter of tracking it back to the PDC. Check for 12V from the battery on pin 6. Check for 12V getting to pin 8 when you turn the ignition switch. Check for continuity in the wire to the starter on pin 7. Check for a good ground on pin 10. That ground is through the NSS/Neutral safety switch, which have been known to go bad too. (maybe move the shifter around a bit)

    Let us know how you make out

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    John I have 2 relays. Tried them both and I know they are botht good but neither worked. The starter is good as well. I watched as it was tested at Autozone.

    Here's a question. Could a bad neutral safety switch prevent the starter from turning over? If so I want to test it as stated in the shop manual. Manual doesn't show a picture of where it's located. I searched the web to no avail. I believe it mounted on the passenger side of the trans but I cant locate it. It may be above the exhaust and hidden from sight. Does anyone have a photo of it's location.

    neutral safety switch: http://www.autozone.com/batteries-st...fi/293233_0_0/

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    Member dukefromthecave's Avatar
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    Check for 12 volts DC at starter solenoid (small wire on starter) with key to start position.

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    Did you try starting in Neutral.......... shift to "N" and try,,,, then back to "P" and try
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoTime View Post
    Did you try starting in Neutral.......... shift to "N" and try,,,, then back to "P" and try
    That and more! Tomorrow morning I'll replace the NSS and see it that does it. If not who the fauck knows...

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    Forum CONDUCTOR Man Z88Z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MexiJeeper View Post
    .... The starter is good as well. I watched as it was tested at Autozone.

    Here's a question. Could a bad neutral safety switch prevent the starter from turning over? ....
    Quote Originally Posted by NoTime View Post
    Did you try starting in Neutral.......... shift to "N" and try,,,, then back to "P" and try
    Quote Originally Posted by dukefromthecave View Post
    Check for 12 volts DC at starter solenoid (small wire on starter) with key to start position.

    I got that Tony but what I'm saying is disturbing the starter, taking it out and moving it around etc, is a lot like the hammer trick. It might work temporarily but there's most likely still a problem., carbon spots, sticky brushes etc.

    Granted, it might not be the starter itself at all and it's more likely one of the other problems being discussed. If you put it back in and it didn't start after working on the bench then ya, it's most likely one of the other components.


    As said above, NSS could definitely be the problem. I'd do what Tim said ^ but with the key in the start position while I was moving the shifter - and foot on the brake in case it does start, LOL

    And like Duke said, 12V at the little wire on the starter with the key in the start position is definitive proof the rest of the system is working correctly.
    You'd either have to have someone turning the key or have a long set of test leads to reach down there so you can see the meter when you turn the key. Or - with someone turning the key you should be able to feel the relay click. (that's kinda so-so cuz there's going to be other relays clicking when the key is turned.



    Here's the NSS. THe white switch in this pic. Driver's side just behind and a bit lower than the shifter levers.

    If it is the problem you should be able to run a ground to the pin for the Black/White wire. Make sure it's in park when you try it though!









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    John thanks much. I will do all the above again. As I previously stated I had the starter bench tested at Autozone in front of my eyes and it works just fine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dukefromthecave View Post
    Check for 12 volts DC at starter solenoid (small wire on starter) with key to start position.
    I replaced the NSS and that's not the problem. She won't start. With the key in the start position I checked the power to the solenoid. Big red wire has full voltage. The small black wire shows zero voltage. What is that black wire? What now?

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    The small wire at the starter should be light green/black, but whatever.

    If that wire doesn't show voltage with the key in the start position there's some problem with the wiring to or from the relay somewhere in there.

    Pull out the starter relay. Check for 12V from the battery on pin 6. If you don't have 12v there's a problem between that pin and fuse #8 (That would be inside the PDC somewhere)

    Check for 12V getting to pin 8 - but it will only show the 12V while you are holding the ignition switch in the start position. If you get nothing, it's either the ignition switch or the power getting to it. You could check the Red/White wire at the ignition switch connector to see if it's getting 12V (which also comes from that fuse #8)

    Check for continuity in the wire from pin 7 down to the light green/back wire at the starter.

    Check for a good ground on pin 10. That ground is through the NSS/Neutral safety switch.


    Additionally, if you make a jumper wire and put 12V to pin 7 in the starter relay socket it should energize the solenoid and the Jeep should start if the key is in the on position.

    Does your Jeep have any aftermarket alarm or remote start system? These could also be causing problems.


    Let us know what you find with these check and we go from there....


    In the meantime, check for any signs of rodent intrusion, chewed wires etc, maybe.

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    Thanks much John. Off to the salt mines to give her a whirl.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Z88Z View Post
    The small wire at the starter should be light green/black, but whatever.

    If that wire doesn't show voltage with the key in the start position there's some problem with the wiring to or from the relay somewhere in there.

    Pull out the starter relay. Check for 12V from the battery on pin 6. If you don't have 12v there's a problem between that pin and fuse #8 (That would be inside the PDC somewhere)

    Check for 12V getting to pin 8 - but it will only show the 12V while you are holding the ignition switch in the start position. If you get nothing, it's either the ignition switch or the power getting to it. You could check the Red/White wire at the ignition switch connector to see if it's getting 12V (which also comes from that fuse #8)

    Check for continuity in the wire from pin 7 down to the light green/back wire at the starter.

    Check for a good ground on pin 10. That ground is through the NSS/Neutral safety switch.


    Additionally, if you make a jumper wire and put 12V to pin 7 in the starter relay socket it should energize the solenoid and the Jeep should start if the key is in the on position.

    Does your Jeep have any aftermarket alarm or remote start system? These could also be causing problems.


    Let us know what you find with these check and we go from there....


    In the meantime, check for any signs of rodent intrusion, chewed wires etc, maybe.
    John I swear I wouldn't know what to do , electrically speaking, without you. I can't count the times you have rescued me. Enough already, I don't want to have to reserve a motel room.

    Pull out the starter relay. Check for 12V from the battery on pin 6. If you don't have 12v there's a problem between that pin and fuse #8 (That would be inside the PDC somewhere)

    Fuse #8 is good and one leg of the socket shows 12 volts with a meter. I used a light bulb continuity tester on relay socket pin 6 but the bulb lit on the - battery terminal not the +. I thought that was strange.

    Check for continuity in the wire from pin 7 down to the light green/back wire at the starter.

    This is good. 12 volts with the meter and continuity to the + battery terminal

    Check for a good ground on pin 10. That ground is through the NSS/Neutral safety switch.


    This is good. 12 volts with the meter and continuity to the + battery terminal

    Additionally, if you make a jumper wire and put 12V to pin 7 in the starter relay socket it should energize the solenoid and the Jeep should start if the key is in the on position.

    OMG! This was the best tip of all! She fired right up for the first time in a year!!!!

    Check for 12V getting to pin 8 - but it will only show the 12V while you are holding the ignition switch in the start position. If you get nothing, it's either the ignition switch or the power getting to it.

    The test of the #8 pin was a total fail. Zero, zip, zilch, nada! I believe this is the culprit.

    You could check the Red/White wire at the ignition switch connector to see if it's getting 12V (which also comes from that fuse #8)

    Now please tell me where to find this wire you speak of so I can check for power. Any fuses inside the cabin I should check?



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by MexiJeeper View Post
    .....Now please tell me where to find this wire you speak of so I can check for power. Any fuses inside the cabin I should check?.....

    For clarification, there's two wires involved in that circuit Tony.

    There's the Red/White carrying battery 12V to the ignition switch, and a Yellow/Red wire that sends the 12V to the starter relay when the key is in the start position.

    They do both go through the C233 connector, but that can be a PITA to get to. It's in that connector junction block way up under the dash about where the driver's left knee would be.

    Probably easier just to go right to the ignition switch.

    You have to remove three screws in that bottom shroud under the column. It has one "tamper-proof" torx screw, which requires a tamper proof bit to get to. Like a regular torx but it has a dimple in the face. They're cheap by the set at parts stores.

    Then there's two regular torx that are way deep up there and kind of a PITA to get to, torx with their bits not normally being that long etc. I've actually always used my handy dandy pocket screwdriver (straight blade type) but sometimes it takes little pliers or whatever to help you break them loose that first turn.

    Once you get it off and get to the connector, check for 12V at the Red/White (there's actually two fed by the same source). If that has 12V turn the key to start and you should see 12V on the Yellow/Red while it's in the start position.

    If you don't have power getting to the ignition switch on the R/W wire, or if you do have 12V coming out of the switch on the Y/R wire but it's not making it back to the PDC - then I'd start looking at that C233 connector, but I'm guessing the ignition switch is bad so I'd start there.


    I gotta fly off to work, but I can come up with pics etc later if you need them - Z



    There's really only two places to pick this up Tony.

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    Thanks John. I'll get on that this morning.

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    John here are the test results in every key position.

    + = 12 volts
    0 = no voltage

    img013-001.jpg


    Switch-001.jpg
    Last edited by MexiJeeper; 05-06-2015 at 04:53 PM.

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    Wow - interesting...

    There should really only be four positions though: ACC, OFF, RUN, START.

    Run provides all the power for everything (PCM, fuel pump, ASD relay, etc.) to keep it running.
    Start provides that same power but also temporarily energizes the yellow wire to send voltage to the starter relay at the same time.
    (I believe the start position also actually de-energizes some of the minor accessories like radio and AC so more power is available for the starter motor)


    And a minor correction, although not really important. Per the FSM that wire is solid yellow from the ignition switch down to the C233 connector. It's Yellow/Red from the other side of C233 to the PDC.


    Tony, I'd just like to confirm a few things about this testing. Then we can move on to tracing a possible wiring problem.


    So, the yellow wire at pin 1 showed 0V in the other positions but showed 12V when you turned the key to the start position - but the starter still didn't work?

    What were the testing conditions? Was this with a volt meter or test light?
    Was the starter relay in place? And it looks like you were correctly back probing the connector at the ignition switch when you turned the key to the start position since you got 12V, yes?
    (FYI - I notice the connector isn't firmly seated but I'm guessing that was done when you were initially checking for voltage or whatever. I don't think that matters if you still got the 12V on the yellow in the crank position though)


    I'm assuming/hoping you still have the ignition switch and connector exposed like it is, or did you button it back up?
    So assuming you still have access to that ignition connector, just to humor me - can you run a short jumper from either of the Red/White wires at 4 or 7 and briefly touch it to the Yellow wire at pin 1 (with the starter relay in place) and confirm that the starter still doesn't work.
    Assuming nothing changes and the starter still isn't working - can you pull the starter relay out and confirm with a test light or voltmeter that no voltage is getting to pin 8 in the starter relay socket when you have that jumper in place.
    And as a further mickey mouse back up check, lol - can you also try it with the starter relay pulled out and a short jumper across pins 8 and 7 in the starter relay socket? If it does crank I wouldn't crank it like that for more than a few seconds - just long enough to see if the starter does anything at all.
    That test would in effect bypass the starter relay and send 12V directly to the starter solenoid. It just confirms there's no other problems in the relay setup.

    Probably nothing will change, I'm just trying to confirm there's no voltage drop across burned/carbonized contacts in the ignition switch.

    If by any chance something changed when you jump it like that and the starter does work, it points back to the ignition switch.



    So if nothing changes, then we'll have to get into the routing of that Yellow wire on it's way to the C233 connector, and the Yellow/Red wire on it's way from the C233 connector to the PDC starter relay socket.


    Just to confirm a few things - no remote start or added alarm system in your Jeep?
    Was any power tapped into in the area by the connector junction block for any added accessories? If there was, check out those areas.


    I'll handle the rest of it in a second post. Will try to grab a few pics to make it easier. In the meantime, take a look around for any signs of rodent activity, chewed wires etc. or any other kind of damage to the wiring harness.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z88Z View Post
    Wow - interesting...

    There should really only be four positions though: ACC, OFF, RUN, START.

    Run provides all the power for everything (PCM, fuel pump, ASD relay, etc.) to keep it running.
    Start provides that same power but also temporarily energizes the yellow wire to send voltage to the starter relay at the same time.
    (I believe the start position also actually de-energizes some of the minor accessories like radio and AC so more power is available for the starter motor)


    And a minor correction, although not really important. Per the FSM that wire is solid yellow from the ignition switch down to the C233 connector. It's Yellow/Red from the other side of C233 to the PDC.


    Tony, I'd just like to confirm a few things about this testing. Then we can move on to tracing a possible wiring problem.


    So, the yellow wire at pin 1 showed 0V in the other positions but showed 12V when you turned the key to the start position - but the starter still didn't work?

    What were the testing conditions? Was this with a volt meter or test light?
    Was the starter relay in place? And it looks like you were correctly back probing the connector at the ignition switch when you turned the key to the start position since you got 12V, yes?
    (FYI - I notice the connector isn't firmly seated but I'm guessing that was done when you were initially checking for voltage or whatever. I don't think that matters if you still got the 12V on the yellow in the crank position though)


    I'm assuming/hoping you still have the ignition switch and connector exposed like it is, or did you button it back up?
    So assuming you still have access to that ignition connector, just to humor me - can you run a short jumper from either of the Red/White wires at 4 or 7 and briefly touch it to the Yellow wire at pin 1 (with the starter relay in place) and confirm that the starter still doesn't work.
    Assuming nothing changes and the starter still isn't working - can you pull the starter relay out and confirm with a test light or voltmeter that no voltage is getting to pin 8 in the starter relay socket when you have that jumper in place.
    And as a further mickey mouse back up check, lol - can you also try it with the starter relay pulled out and a short jumper across pins 8 and 7 in the starter relay socket? If it does crank I wouldn't crank it like that for more than a few seconds - just long enough to see if the starter does anything at all.
    That test would in effect bypass the starter relay and send 12V directly to the starter solenoid. It just confirms there's no other problems in the relay setup.

    Probably nothing will change, I'm just trying to confirm there's no voltage drop across burned/carbonized contacts in the ignition switch.

    If by any chance something changed when you jump it like that and the starter does work, it points back to the ignition switch.



    So if nothing changes, then we'll have to get into the routing of that Yellow wire on it's way to the C233 connector, and the Yellow/Red wire on it's way from the C233 connector to the PDC starter relay socket.


    Just to confirm a few things - no remote start or added alarm system in your Jeep?
    Was any power tapped into in the area by the connector junction block for any added accessories? If there was, check out those areas.


    I'll handle the rest of it in a second post. Will try to grab a few pics to make it easier. In the meantime, take a look around for any signs of rodent activity, chewed wires etc. or any other kind of damage to the wiring harness.

    Thanks again for all this help J. It's to hot and humid for this old body to work but tomorrow morning I'll do some more diagnosis.

    I'll handle the rest of it in a second post. Will try to grab a few pics to make it easier. In the meantime, take a look around for any signs of rodent activity, chewed wires etc. or any other kind of damage to the wiring harness.

    None at all.

    Just to confirm a few things - no remote start or added alarm system in your Jeep?
    Was any power tapped into in the area by the connector junction block for any added accessories? If there was, check out those areas.


    None of the above.

    There should really only be four positions though: ACC, OFF, RUN, START.

    Sorry wrong nomenclature. I should have written ACCESSORY, OFF (key removed), RUN, START and, START (while actually turning the key trying to engage the starter motor). As you can see I got different reading between START and START while turning the key.

    So, the yellow wire at pin 1 showed 0V in the other positions but showed 12V when you turned the key to the start position - but the starter still didn't work?

    That is correct.
    What were the testing conditions? Was this with a volt meter or test light?

    I used a light bulb continuity tester. Would you like me to do the test again using a volt meter?

    Was the starter relay in place?

    Yes.

    And it looks like you were correctly back probing the connector at the ignition switch when you turned the key to the start position since you got 12V, yes?

    That is correct.

    (FYI - I notice the connector isn't firmly seated but I'm guessing that was done when you were initially checking for voltage or whatever. I don't think that matters if you still got the 12V on the yellow in the crank position though)

    Connector is at tight as a 40 year old virgin.

    I'm assuming/hoping you still have the ignition switch and connector exposed like it is, or did you button it back up?

    It's still apart. Since I'm throwing a bit of money at this repair I ordered an ignition switch ($40.00) with it's key off the Bay. None available at the JYs here and the dealer has to order one from the USA at a cost of nearly $250.00. If it is the switch I don't want to be without one. I should have it around the 17th and if I haven't got her key started by then I'll swap the switch first thong. If it is the switch then I'll swap the lock tumbler as well.

    So assuming you still have access to that ignition connector, just to humor me - can you run a short jumper from either of the Red/White wires at 4 or 7 and briefly touch it to the Yellow wire at pin 1 (with the starter relay in place) and confirm that the starter still doesn't work. And so on and so forth

    I will do all the suggested tests first thing in the morning and report back.

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    Got the replacement ignition switch, installed it and no start. It's not the switch.

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