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  1. #1
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    93 Grand Cherokee 5.2L with Hughs 318STROKERKIT

    Hi!


    I am planning to do a Magnum 318->390 with the hughesengines.com kit 318STROKERKIT.


    I called Hughes and they said they "heard" of this kit working with a stock 5.2L engine computer, but that he "can't say for sure it would work". He said the OBDI on the pre-96 was a problem.


    My goal here is to Up the torque and put a "6.4L" decal on the rear (and the doors too!). I have no interest in high revs or hp bragging rights.


    so i will have:


    - stock heads
    - stock '93 cam
    - stock '93 engine computer
    - stock fuel injection
    - melling high volume oil pump
    - performance water pump
    - balanced crank, rods, and pistons from the 318STROKERKIT kit.


    My question is: will this work? will the engine computer adjust the injector for more fuel, and do so automatically?


    At least one person thinks it does work:


    http://thespeedfreaks.net/showthread...Orange-Monster


    Last thing I want is to start it up and find that it runs lean, or does not run at all (or worse!).


    ]Paul

  2. #2
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    You could have Flyin Ryan do a tune for you. Welcome to the site!
    Last edited by MexiJeeper; 03-18-2015 at 04:08 PM.

  3. #3
    King Dumbass McCloudsZJ's Avatar
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    Welcome to the site, Paul!

    And I'm not super familiar with stroker, or OBD1, but if the stock calibration won't get you by, there are a couple piggyback bits as well as full on stand alone engine management.

    And I don't think SCT will work here, Tony.

  4. #4
    Member xaza's Avatar
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    welcome to the group. I would imagine stock tune would be fine since you are using the stock cam, the smart guys will chime in soon. I would imagine better flowing fuel injectors and regulator could give the additional fuel wanted. I think you will be restricted by the stock valves in the head.
    We do not remember days, we remember moments.

    Cesare Pavese

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    Member ZJ-John's Avatar
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    Seems like a waste of time doing all of that bottom end work just to strangle it with the stock top end and OBDI.

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    The stock fuel injection can probably keep up, but at a higher duty cycle. Stock on the 93 5.2 is 18.3 lbs at 39psi - going one step up to about 24 lb injectors (like Siemens 53030262) or 22 lb (like Bosch 0280155703) would bring it down closer to the stock duty cycle and headroom, and it's better to err on the rich side. While you're at it, you might as well upgrade to newer style injectors for better spray. The Bosch ones I mentioned are newer style, and they're direct fit.

    Oh... and I agree with John to an extent. You would get much more bang for the buck by spending money on the top end. My only hesitation is that you said it's torque you're after, a stroker kit with the stock top end will surely give you low-end torque.
    Last edited by carlmon; 03-18-2015 at 08:36 PM.

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    Hi McCloudsZJ!

    Standalone Engine Management? Doing a search and I see lots of $$$.

    I'd like to try get by with the stock controller (supposed to be PCM 56028011 or 56028012 -- I haven't checked). If someone can tell me whether it will run lean or erratically then I can start planning.

    I just want to know if anyone has tried it and if it will start up?? or just gurgle and sputter?

    Will it pass an emissions test do you think??


    ZJ-John --- I have a spreadsheat of the overhaul and the all-in cost delta for the stroker is $1500 *if* the stock controller works. It's a lot of extra torque for $1500 extra spent. Alternative top end enhancements with tuning do ramp up to $1500 pretty quickly and give you extra torque over 4000 rpm only. So you'll have to quantify *exactly* how much of a waist of time this is!! :-)


    If the stock controller will not work I'm going to grind the original 3.31 crank and put it right back in and it will be a basic 5.2L with no frills :-(

  8. #8
    im super special x10radsponge's Avatar
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    Hello and welcome!

  9. #9
    Member SilverXJ's Avatar
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    If you are interested in a piggy back solution take a look at the AEM FIC8. It can't add timing but it can pull timing and add or reduce fuel. It intercepts the injector's signal directly and does not interfere with the MAP signal.

  10. #10
    RallyJeep GO
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    Quote Originally Posted by MexiJeeper View Post
    You could have Flyin Ryan do a tune for you. Welcome to the site!
    Not on an OBDI ECU...
    1998 ZJ 5.9 Limited - Deep Slate
    Mods: Big trans cooler, 231 swap, Indy MA-X heads prepped by IMM, Comp 20-744-9 cam, 1.7 HS roller rockers, 52mm TB, Airgap manifold, DT headers and full 3" exhaust, SCT tune homebrewed by me, Martin Saine valve body, B&M tranny pan, magic suspension made from unicorn tears, power steering cooler, lots of lighting mods

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    The AEM FIC8 is over $600. Says it only works with OBDII: http://www.aemelectronics.com/?q=pro...ntroller/fic-8

  12. #12
    Member JGC403's Avatar
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    It will run. My 1995 OBD-I PCM ran the 408 in my Jeep.

    Engine Block:
    What machine work are you having done to the block?
    Use an online calculator to find the exact compression ratio of your build, not just by what Hughes says the compression will be. If you can get the block 0 decked, and still stay at a 9:1 compression ratio, use a thin head gasket so you still have some quench. Then you won't have to worry about detonation, and in the future if you want a little more power get a Mopar Performance PCM, which advances the timing a little.

    Cylinder Heads:
    The heads are probably worn out, as in the valve seats, guides, and seals and/or cracked. I would ask the machine shop, that your block is at, how much it would cost to have the heads hot tanked, magnafluxed, then re-conditioned. If the heads are cracked or the total price to have them rebuilt is more than a set of EQ heads, Go with the EQ heads they flow better than stock so its a better bang for the buck than re-building the stock ones.
    Someone posted a source on here, that you could get them from someone on ebay at a good price. Maybe someone know what thread I'm talkin about.

    Fuel System
    Now the OBD-I jeeps use a lower fuel pressure than the OBD-II Jeeps. Your stock injectors flow 18.4lb, the Ford 24lb injectors at the lower OBD-I pressure will flow 22.7lb. Or get a set of injectors from a 1995 5.2, these have the highest stock size injectors, they flow 24.6lb at the OBD-I pressure. So you have a couple options. Go to the Junkyard a look around, part number for the Jeep ones is 53030262.
    Stock fuel pump should be fine.

    Camshaft
    Your goal is to try and trick the PCM into thinking its still running a 318, so if the camshaft is to small, there will be a lot of vacuum. So it might go outside the PCMs stock parameters if you stay to small, I think, I'm just guessing with that, never ran into this situation.
    Or at least get those Scorpion Ford 1.7 ratio rocker arms, that will help a little with breathing.

    Stock Cam Specs are Duration 251I/ 264E, Lift .432" I&E, Centerline of 113
    I guess Mopar discontinued the R/T cam but Crane makes vary similar if not exactly the same: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/crn-704121

    Intake
    Get a ported T.B. Someone makes them on here.
    Port the Kegger, don't shorten the runners, just smooth them out and flare out the openings. Get a new bottom plate for the Kegger also. Someone makes an aluminum bottom plate for the Kegger on here. the reason for that is, the stock one is steel, since steel and aluminum expand at different rates the gaskets fail. With a failed gasket, oil gets sucked into the engine. burning oil= detonation.

    Exhaust
    Manifolds with the larger 2.5" outlet and a good Y-pipe.


    Peak torque will probably be a 3000rpm, with a stock cam and heads. And I think it will be choking it even at that low an RPM.


    If you restrict it to much I think you will be disappointed, you should open it up a bit, you will get more low end and have nice top end as well.

    That is all I can think of at the moment, I probably forgot something. If you have more questions just ask.
    Last edited by JGC403; 03-19-2015 at 11:09 AM.
    No replacement for displacement!

    1995 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo ZJ
    360 Stroker, 408c.i.


  13. #13
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    The stock fuel injection can probably keep up, but at a higher duty cycle. Stock on the 93 5.2 is 18.3 lbs at 39psi - going one step up to about 24 lb injectors (like Siemens 53030262) or 22 lb (like Bosch 0280155703) would bring it down closer to the stock duty cycle and headroom, and it's better to err on the rich side. While you're at it, you might as well upgrade to newer style injectors for better spray. The Bosch ones I mentioned are newer style, and they're direct fit.

    Oh... and I agree with John to an extent. You would get much more bang for the buck by spending money on the top end. My only hesitation is that you said it's torque you're after, a stroker kit with the stock top end will surely give you low-end torque.

    Hi carlmon,

    Thanks for Bosch part number. I should have mentioned: I'm going for the 4-hole injectors. A remanufactured set of 8 is only $120. So it would be silly to reuse the old ones.

    So you are saying that I just need to swap out the injectors? There is nothing else I replace? And the engine controller I leave just as is?

  14. #14
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    The tuning in the ECU won't be optimal for the new combo, but given injectors of a reasonable size, it'll run acceptably. You'll be able to get a bit more power out of it later (and better driveability) with some form of tuning solution, but that can wait unless there's any glaring issues off the bat.
    1998 ZJ 5.9 Limited - Deep Slate
    Mods: Big trans cooler, 231 swap, Indy MA-X heads prepped by IMM, Comp 20-744-9 cam, 1.7 HS roller rockers, 52mm TB, Airgap manifold, DT headers and full 3" exhaust, SCT tune homebrewed by me, Martin Saine valve body, B&M tranny pan, magic suspension made from unicorn tears, power steering cooler, lots of lighting mods

  15. #15
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    It will run. My 1995 OBD-I PCM ran the 408 in my Jeep.
    really? 408? wow!

    What machine work are you having done to the block?
    they are boring it to 0.030. said it will be done by tomorrow. which means it will be done by wednesday next week.

    Use an online calculator to find the exact compression ratio of your build, not just by what Hughes says the compression will be. If you can get the block 0 decked, and still stay at a 9:1 compression ratio, use a thin head gasket so you still have some quench. Then you won't have to worry about detonation, and in the future if you want a little more power get a Mopar Performance PCM, which advances the timing a little.
    ok, stock compression is 9.1. hughes says "Approximately 9.25:1 w/ 65cc heads or 10:1 w. 58cc heads."

    How many cc's in the stock heads? 65??

    You mean the Mopar PCM P5249518? Can't get these anymore :-(

    The heads are probably worn out, as in the valve seats, guides, and seals and/or cracked. I would ask the machine shop, that your block is at, how much it would cost to have the heads hot tanked, magnafluxed, then re-conditioned. If the heads are cracked or the total price to have them rebuilt is more than a set of EQ heads, Go with the EQ heads they flow better than stock so its a better bang for the buck than re-building the stock ones.
    Someone posted a source on here, that you could get them from someone on ebay at a good price. Maybe someone know what thread I'm talkin about.
    My heads are already back from the machine shop. Yes one had a crack. They welded and reground it. Because I'm paranoid I sent them to a second machine shop to check the work of the first. They were happy -- they pressure tested and measured everything. The weld job itself was $85 I think.

    Now the OBD-I jeeps use a lower fuel pressure than the OBD-II Jeeps. Your stock injectors flow 18.4lb, the Ford 24lb injectors at the lower OBD-I pressure will flow 22.7lb. Or get a set of injectors from a 1995 5.2, these have the highest stock size injectors, they flow 24.6lb at the OBD-I pressure. So you have a couple options. Go to the Junkyard a look around, part number for the Jeep ones is 53030262.
    Stock fuel pump should be fine.
    cool

    Camshaft
    Your goal is to try and trick the PCM into thinking its still running a 318, so if the camshaft is to small, there will be a lot of vacuum. So it might go outside the PCMs stock parameters if you stay to small, I think, I'm just guessing with that, never ran into this situation.
    Or at least get those Scorpion Ford 1.7 ratio rocker arms, that will help a little with breathing.

    Stock Cam Specs are Duration 251I/ 264E, Lift .432" I&E, Centerline of 113
    I guess Mopar discontinued the R/T cam but Crane makes vary similar if not exactly the same: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/crn-704121
    Melling sells a stock kit with both Melling MC1262 and 16 Hydr-Roller lifters included for $340 for 93-94 Jeeps. Crane 704121 has about 0.06 extra lift but it's $500 without the lifters. (1.7-1.6)/1.6*0.4 = 0.025 extra lift - another $400. Hughes (see www.hughesengines.com/TechArticles/5basiccamguidelinesformagnumlahydraulicrollercams. php) has HER9204ALN-10 is 0.1 extra lift at $575 inclusive of springs, but then you loose out on the melling combo-deal. (I think you mean Harland Sharp 1.7 --- Scorpion seems to be Chevy.) Stock Melling 1309 is for 95-97 -- see attached timings -- differences are interesting.

    Seems the most lift per buck is the HER9204ALN-10 -- timing is similar to the Melling. Hughs claims no PCM changes.

    Do you really think 2.5mm of lift is going to make a difference??? All quite expensive IMO. I'm a complete beginner but CFM gains due to lift do not seem that dramatic over 0.4: http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2...200/index2.php
    Seems like that graph is working at an assumed -7 kPa pressure drop and very high rpms.

    Is -7 kPa going to make the PCM flacky? Denver is like -14 kPa. Oh right -- it will be -7 kPa below the manifold pressure, so the MAP sensor will be off. Hmmmm. Doesn't the PCM work on the oxygen sensor too?


    Get a ported T.B. Someone makes them on here.
    Port the Kegger, don't shorten the runners, just smooth them out and flare out the openings. Get a new bottom plate for the Kegger also. Someone makes an aluminum bottom plate for the Kegger on here. the reason for that is, the stock one is steel, since steel and aluminum expand at different rates the gaskets fail. With a failed gasket, oil gets sucked into the engine. burning oil= detonation.
    porting the kegger is free :-)
    I like the part about the aluminum plate.
    A search on hughes gives 7720R which has an aluminum plate - nice.


    Manifolds with the larger 2.5" outlet and a good Y-pipe.
    If you restrict it to much I think you will be disappointed, you should open it up a bit, you will get more low end and have nice top end as well.
    I'll be dissapointed if it runs lean and eats the pistons! Anything else I can deal with!! LOL :-)

    Thanks!!

    Sounds like the major question is whether it's outside of the PCM range.

  16. #16
    RallyJeep GO
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    Stock heads are ~62cc.
    1998 ZJ 5.9 Limited - Deep Slate
    Mods: Big trans cooler, 231 swap, Indy MA-X heads prepped by IMM, Comp 20-744-9 cam, 1.7 HS roller rockers, 52mm TB, Airgap manifold, DT headers and full 3" exhaust, SCT tune homebrewed by me, Martin Saine valve body, B&M tranny pan, magic suspension made from unicorn tears, power steering cooler, lots of lighting mods

  17. #17
    Member JGC403's Avatar
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    You could disassemble and clean up the bowl area under the valve, the pushrod pinch area and do a gasket match on the intake side. If you can get the heads apart yourself, that's free horsepower right there.

    No, there is a thread on here about someone using the Scorpion 1.7 rockers on here. They are cheaper than the Harland Sharp ones.

    Someone sells an aluminum plate for the Kegger on here and I think its cheaper than the Hughes one.

    Get a Wideband O2 sensor, so you can monitor what igoing on. If you find you are running lean with the Ford injectors go up to the 1995 Jeep ones. Also you can put the Intake Air Sensor into the intake tube this will richen up the mixture a bit but also advance the timing some.

    I'll get back to you about the camshaft.
    No replacement for displacement!

    1995 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo ZJ
    360 Stroker, 408c.i.


  18. #18
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    comptiget5000,

    The tuning in the ECU won't be optimal for the new combo, but given injectors of a reasonable size, it'll run acceptably. You'll be able to get a bit more power out of it later (and better driveability) with some form of tuning solution, but that can wait unless there's any glaring issues off the bat.
    thanks. glad to read this. it's is a world apart from where i was last week, lol.

    see: www.ebay.com/itm/93-94-JEEP-GRAND-CHEROKEE-5-2-318-V8-24lb-255cc-UPGRADE-FUEL-INJECTORS-/261649866436
    is this ok? the part number is not the same as carlmon suggested?
    Is 24lb enough?


    JGC403,

    You could disassemble and clean up the bowl area under the valve, the pushrod pinch area and do a gasket match on the intake side. If you can get the heads apart yourself, that's free horsepower right there.
    free is good :-)

    No, there is a thread on here about someone using the Scorpion 1.7 rockers on here. They are cheaper than the Harland Sharp ones.
    yeah but they don't link together in pairs like the Harland. some say there is a risk of walking -- don't you need guide thingies to be safe? guides cost extra.

    Get a Wideband O2 sensor, so you can monitor what igoing on. If you find you are running lean with the Ford injectors go up to the 1995 Jeep ones. Also you can put the Intake Air Sensor into the intake tube this will richen up the mixture a bit but also advance the timing some.
    By "wideband" do you mean this thing:

    http://www.amazon.com/APSX-D2-Digita.../dp/B00NBYSTSC

    That's the most brilliant idea ever! So do I just tap a hole somewhere in the exhaust and run the cable through the firewall?

    By "Intake Air Sensor" you mean intake manifold temperature sensor? You want me to drill a hole in the plastic intake tube and move it there?

    I found his kegger plate on ebay. He says it's made from H32 5052 ALUMINUM. I bought it.

  19. #19
    Member JGC403's Avatar
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    Yea that O2 gauge will work. I am using an AEM UEGO. I would put it close to the stock O2 sensor (but not right behind it) and that is basically right behind the Y-pipe if I remember correctly. You will need an O2 bung then drill a hole in the exhaust pipe and weld the bung in. Now you will have 2 O2 sensors in the exhaust pipe one for the gauge and one for the PCM.

    Don't go crazy porting and polishing the head. In the bowl area, just smooth out the sharp edge left over from machining. Once you take a valve out, you will see it, its the area that the machined surface above the valve meets the as cast part of the runner. You can open up the pushrod punch area if you want, and then do a gasket match. Make sure you clean them vary well once you are done, don't want any of that junk getting sucked into the engine.

    Camshaft
    millimeters where did that come from?
    With the stock cam and 1.72 ratio rockers the lift would go from .432" lift to .464" lift. Duration would stay the same. 251 Intake/ 264 Exhaust, Centerline of 113
    I would do either or. Either the Stock Cam and 1.72 rockers ($276) or Crane Cam and stock rockers ($496).

    I couldn't find any specs on the Melling cam.

    Found the thread: http://thespeedfreaks.net/showthread...roller-rockers

    Yea the Intake Intake Air Temp Sensor (IAT) that is normally in the Kegger, you can plug that hole and move it to the intake tube close to the air filter. I wouldn't do it now, I would save that for when its all back together and running and if you find that it is running lean and you need to "tune" it. Then move it. There will be a little trial and error to get it right.
    Last edited by JGC403; 03-20-2015 at 09:58 AM.
    No replacement for displacement!

    1995 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo ZJ
    360 Stroker, 408c.i.


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    Here is some interesting info:


    A Bosch fuel injector table of specifications:

    http://www.polog40.co.uk/article_injector_table.php

    This book ($10 on google play), by Jim Szilagyi, gives all the necessary dimensions:

    https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1932494065

    Between Szilagyi and the factory manual, the only dimensions not listed are here:

    The compression height of the stock 318 mopar pistons -- I measured it at 1.770 +/- 0.0005 inches.

    The stated stock compressed gasket thickness is 0.0475. The victor reinz gasket measures 0.049 -- I assume it will squeeze to stock.

    The original rear main seal diameter measures at 2.700 +/- 0.0001?. Szilagyi says add +0.01 for older cranks, and has some comments on the rear main seal to use. Note that Felpro insists that the seal needs knurling to keep it lubricated. My original crankshaft had knurling.

  21. #21
    Member SilverXJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulsheer View Post
    That is not what it says. Its say "This system works on OBD-II". There is no 'only' there.

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    Thanks for everyone that replied.

    Really appreciate the help.

    ]Paul

  23. #23
    Member JGC403's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulsheer View Post
    Thanks for everyone that replied.

    Really appreciate the help.

    ]Paul

    Did you get the engine together already?
    No replacement for displacement!

    1995 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo ZJ
    360 Stroker, 408c.i.


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    Hi,

    Answer: No, LOL :-)

    I decided the 4" stroker was way to far off on the fringe for me.

    I did the following:

    - Silvo-O-lite 1278 +.030" pistons
    - Scat 3.58" Crank
    - Re-used stock con-rods.
    - Machined reliefs into the pistons on my Lathe to bring the compression ratio down to 9.6:1 (the pistons are really meant for heads with a larger chamber)
    - Re-flashing of the ECU to Mopar performance version by sykedecutuning.com -- requires 92 octane.
    - 24lb injectors @+- $120.

    Sent the crank for balancing today.

    This brings the ZJ from a stock 5.2L to a 5.7L. Which is cool enough for me.

    The crank was under $400 and the pistons I got on E-Bay for $130. The balancing will be $200 and the ECU $100.

    So it sounds really cheep right? No no -- I've spent $3100 on tools/materials and $4400 on parts so far. All the little things really add up -- engine sensors, new distributor, oil pump, water pump, 242 tc, hoses, grommets, etc. etc.. Admittedly those figures are inclusive of $860 for a lathe and $500 for lathe-tools/add-ons. But I've always wanted a lathe and I can't see how anyone can work on cars without one.

    When I'm done the drive-train will be all-new or as good as one can get to all-new.

    ]Paul

    - - - Updated - - -



    Oh -- the $4400 is inclusive of the $500 I paid for the car! :-)

  25. #25
    Jeep 5.2 V8 montelibre's Avatar
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    I stroked my jeep to 392 ci (it's an OBD2) and it was running well with the stock ECU several months. I don't know if the air fuel ratio was fine.
    Later I install a Megasquirt MSX3 and it runs better during a month...but on the past September I broke the Crankshaft ( the main bearings were installed wrong) and the engine hasn't been fixed yet...I hope to do it in a few weeks.
    Last edited by montelibre; 04-26-2015 at 02:55 PM.
    1998 Jeep 5.2, in progress...

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