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  1. #1
    RallyJeep GO
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    Budget TB Upgrade Options

    At this point, my 52mm TB is too small and I'm looking to upgrade. I'd rather not spend almost $500 on an F&B 55mm or 58mm. This leaves a few other options:

    Fastman 53mm
    Hughes Big Gulp (plate size unknown, claimed to flow 1000 cfm)
    4bbl of some form (I've got an airgap, so as long as I can find a way to mount the fuel rails, I can run a 4bbl)

    Anyone have any experience with these options, how they flow / perform compared to a 52mm, etc?
    1998 ZJ 5.9 Limited - Deep Slate
    Mods: Big trans cooler, 231 swap, Indy 2.02 heads prepped by IMM, Comp 20-744-9 cam, 1.7 HS roller rockers, 52mm TB, Airgap manifold, DT headers and full 3" exhaust, SCT tune homebrewed by me, Martin Saine valve body, B&M tranny pan, magic suspension made from unicorn tears, power steering cooler, lots of lighting mods

  2. #2
    King Dumbass McCloudsZJ's Avatar
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    I'll be doing a 4bbl

  3. #3
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    I'm pretty sure I'm going to pick up one of these and try to make it work: http://www.store.speedmaster79.com/p...FbRj7AodZW0A_w

    And after screwing around in engine analyzer, I'm kinda sad that I'm running an airgap rather than an M1 4bbl. The Airgap shows around 25 ft. lbs more at peak and has its torque peak 250 rpm sooner (4000 vs 4250), but the bottom end looks very similar. The M1 estimates about 10hp more than the airgap (and peaks at 5500 vs 5000). They both make about the same power at 5000, but the airgap starts falling off after this, the M1 not so much. It's only down a couple hp from peak even at 6000 (which means that even my tiny cam would carry it to the limits of the stock bottom end). The M1 is better up top to the point that I'd be maxing out my 24lb injectors and would need to throw in the 30lb units I have sitting on a shelf.

    I just sim-ed an M1 2bbl too. Funny enough, despite having larger runners and better flow than the airgap, it doesn't seem any better. It made 10 ft. lbs less at peak and 250 rpm later (like the 4bbl, but not as severe). And it made within 2hp of the same peak power (at 5000 just like the airgap). It does fall off a bit slower than the airgap above 5000 though. Airgap would probably be best shifting by 5500, the M1 2bbl around 5700, M1 4bbl would be good to shift at 6000+. Bottom end looks about the same on all 3 intakes.

    So the M1 2bbl and the airgap would probably be similar in terms of 1/4 mile times in the end. The M1 4bbl would likely be a little faster. And the airgap would feel a little stronger than the others on the street when you're not winding it all the way up.

    And here's some shiny simulated graphs:
    Last edited by comptiger5000; 02-25-2015 at 04:02 PM.
    1998 ZJ 5.9 Limited - Deep Slate
    Mods: Big trans cooler, 231 swap, Indy 2.02 heads prepped by IMM, Comp 20-744-9 cam, 1.7 HS roller rockers, 52mm TB, Airgap manifold, DT headers and full 3" exhaust, SCT tune homebrewed by me, Martin Saine valve body, B&M tranny pan, magic suspension made from unicorn tears, power steering cooler, lots of lighting mods

  4. #4
    King Dumbass McCloudsZJ's Avatar
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    That's the one. I've got a thread on dak rt withsome very helpful pictures from people that have installed universal 4bbls.

  5. #5
    RallyJeep GO
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    Link please?
    1998 ZJ 5.9 Limited - Deep Slate
    Mods: Big trans cooler, 231 swap, Indy 2.02 heads prepped by IMM, Comp 20-744-9 cam, 1.7 HS roller rockers, 52mm TB, Airgap manifold, DT headers and full 3" exhaust, SCT tune homebrewed by me, Martin Saine valve body, B&M tranny pan, magic suspension made from unicorn tears, power steering cooler, lots of lighting mods

  6. #6
    King Dumbass McCloudsZJ's Avatar
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    Guess that would help, huh. .. I hadn't looked at the thread in a while. I think it's less useful than I thought it was

    http://www.dakotart.com/forum/showth...quot-4bbl-TB-s

  7. #7
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    Looks pretty helpful to me - not exactly a 4bbl guide for idiots, but I think almost all the puzzle pieces are there. The nice thing about those CNC 4bbl's is the linkages are clamped on, so it would be easy to remove the existing one to modify (or make a new one) to perfectly match the stock linkage.

    I was headed in the 4bbl direction, but headed back to 2bbl, and with this I'm leaning back to 4bbl.

    Don't do it for CFM though... using round bores, a maximized 2bbl can actually outflow a maximized 4bbl by over 8%, but that speedmaster one is cheaper than any 2bbl that comes close, and progressive throttle would be nice.

    BTW- has anyone seen the Speedmaster intake manifold?- http://store.au.speedmaster79.com/p-...-manifold.aspx (not on their US site for some reason, but supposedly available here)
    It looks too tall for a stock hood (but maybe without an adapter?), but for anyone with a hood that looks like their motor is pitching a tent (McCloud!), it would be tempting.

  8. #8
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    That manifold looks a lot like the M1 4bbl. They also have a carb manifold that's a serious rip off of the Edelbrock RPM airgap (which is what the hughes airgap is based on).

    I'm not sure either of their 4bbl TBs is progressive linkage. Also, it looks like I'd be able to keep the linkage in tight enough to get the TB down lower than a 2bbl on an adapter, leaving more hood clearance for a good air hat. Tax return just came in, so I'm going to order a TB today or tomorrow... Probably the 1200cfm unit, rather than the 1000cfm. Do keep in mind, a dual plane manifold will actually need a slightly bigger TB than a single plane will.
    1998 ZJ 5.9 Limited - Deep Slate
    Mods: Big trans cooler, 231 swap, Indy 2.02 heads prepped by IMM, Comp 20-744-9 cam, 1.7 HS roller rockers, 52mm TB, Airgap manifold, DT headers and full 3" exhaust, SCT tune homebrewed by me, Martin Saine valve body, B&M tranny pan, magic suspension made from unicorn tears, power steering cooler, lots of lighting mods

  9. #9
    King Dumbass McCloudsZJ's Avatar
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    Speedmaster has a couple Mopar Magnum intake manifolds. None of them come with fuel injector bosses installed (per their tech support lady, who was a real #$@%!) and the local shop wants $300 to facilitate the injectors. For that, I'd wait for a real intake instead of a Chinese rip off. They also have pretty poor reviews online... Very sloppy casting, poor fitment, etc.

    Anxiously awaiting updates from the lucky duck that actually got a return.

    Side note, where do you pull MAP from now? The manifold, or the TB?

    Side side note, are you still using the TV cable with your MS VB?

  10. #10
    RallyJeep GO
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    Yeah, still uses the TV cable. It's impossible to get rid of it unless you go full manual shift.

    I just ordered the 1200cfm throttle body, we'll see what happens. I'm pulling MAP from the TB now, but that'll probably change with the 4bbl.
    1998 ZJ 5.9 Limited - Deep Slate
    Mods: Big trans cooler, 231 swap, Indy 2.02 heads prepped by IMM, Comp 20-744-9 cam, 1.7 HS roller rockers, 52mm TB, Airgap manifold, DT headers and full 3" exhaust, SCT tune homebrewed by me, Martin Saine valve body, B&M tranny pan, magic suspension made from unicorn tears, power steering cooler, lots of lighting mods

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by McCloudsZJ View Post
    Speedmaster has a couple Mopar Magnum intake manifolds. None of them come with fuel injector bosses installed (per their tech support lady, who was a real #$@%!)
    The specs on that one indicate the bosses are there, but only drilled part way through... shouldn't take a machine shop to finish the job, but if fitment is bad it's probably not worth it. I wasn't aware of any bad reviews... makes me worry about the TB's, although they are CNC's billet. The Aussies do know a thing or two about speed, so the poor quality kind of surprises me.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by comptiger5000 View Post
    I'm not sure either of their 4bbl TBs is progressive linkage. Also, it looks like I'd be able to keep the linkage in tight enough to get the TB down lower than a 2bbl on an adapter, leaving more hood clearance for a good air hat
    If you look at the linkage on the PCE138.1002 you can see the secondary linkage is not linear (is that the one you ordered?). Looks like the 1000 CFM one is adjustable so you can set it up for progressive.
    It looks like both are set up for top pull though... how are you going to deal with that? Keep us posted on how it turns out.

    I'm also looking to install the TB lower for either a different air-hat, or to put a spacer with o-ring seals under the hat. My solution is to make custom fuel rails for linkage clearance. I'd still use a spacer/adapter under the TB, just not as tall as the 2bbl adapter- something like this one http://www.store.speedmaster79.com/p...re-4-port.aspx

  13. #13
    RallyJeep GO
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    Yeah, that's the TB I ordered. So I guess it is progressive, cool enough. I'll have to screw with my shift points a bit for the new TB anyway, so it's no extra work to account for the progressive linkage.

    Once I go to fit the thing, I'll figure out if I need / want a spacer. Not using one (or using a taller one) will let me use the existing brackets to mount the fuel rails, which is convenient.

    I'll have to play with the linkage setup once I get the thing in my hands. It doesn't look like it'll be too hard to get set up for forward pull.
    1998 ZJ 5.9 Limited - Deep Slate
    Mods: Big trans cooler, 231 swap, Indy 2.02 heads prepped by IMM, Comp 20-744-9 cam, 1.7 HS roller rockers, 52mm TB, Airgap manifold, DT headers and full 3" exhaust, SCT tune homebrewed by me, Martin Saine valve body, B&M tranny pan, magic suspension made from unicorn tears, power steering cooler, lots of lighting mods

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