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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z88Z View Post
    I thought the 8.8 was mentioned up there ^ somewhere. Maybe it wasn't? lol.
    I did mention that, but i hate ford and i dont think i could get my self to use ford parts.... hahaha

    Any suggestions on sites with driveline angle info?
    1998 5.9 limited grand cherokee, 196,000 miles, 360ci stock block, 46re stock tranny converted to RWD, 2WD front axle, Bosch 703 injectors, WJ brake swap. IRO dimpled and slotted rotors, K&N, MSD 6A, IAT relocate

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    Forum CONDUCTOR Man Z88Z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark 318 ita View Post
    that's interesting...tell me if i got i right: a lifted rig is running on "extreme" angles and this makes it loosing power...correct?
    Basically, yes.

    I don't know if it's necessarily 'extreme' in stock height AWD but it's not really optimum either, and the higher it gets and the more the angles increase - the less optimum it gets.

    That's why some offroad vendors sell a "Tcase drop" which are basically blocks that go between the frame rails and the transmission crossmember to lower the trans and the back of the Tcase and reduce the driveline angle on vehicles with 'big' lifts - although I think these are more about reducing wear and tear on the driveshaft Ujoints than they are about recovering horsepower - but that's sort of the same thing if you see what I mean. It takes power to stress the UJs and that's power that's off the table more or less.


    I should say first that I'm not an expert on the subject by any means, so I can't really say what the percentages of loss are in relation to the degrees.

    With AWD and normal ride height - i. e. keeping any ability to go offroad etc, there's a limit to how much you can (or want) to correct it. I should also say it's not like it's some kind of terminal loss that absolutely kills AWD performance - just looking at the time slips of dedicated performance builds like Daryl/quikzj and Tim/NoTime shows you can overcome the "loss" to a large extent.

    This is more about what's considered an "ideal" set up for drag racing and performance in general, as related to 2WD.

    Whereas Theo is doing a dedicated 2WD performance build and therefore looking to put as much power to the ground as possible, he can theoretically build in a bit of "correction" while he's at it.



    Quote Originally Posted by theopacific1 View Post
    I did mention that, but i hate ford and i dont think i could get my self to use ford parts.... hahaha

    Any suggestions on sites with driveline angle info?
    Just google "degreeing driveline angles" and a lot of stuff comes up. Check it out.

    The basic theory is: Picture the straight line through your crank shaft and out through the transmission mainshaft and output shaft. Now picture the straight line that's your input gear into the rear differential.
    The closer the driveshaft is to keeping it a straight line between all that - the less power you're losing.

    BUT! - there's also a bit more theory behind this than just thinking about the straight line with the vehicle at rest.
    You also have to account for the suspension travel and the tendency for the axle to want to "wrap" or move up (slightly less of a problem with four link than with say, leaf springs or whatever) so you have to take into account exactly where in this transition from flex to normal plain you want it to be exact. (check any drag race vid and watch the way the rear end of the vehicle sinks and/or raises while it's moving from a stop, etc)

    That's where adjustable CAs can help put if you want to fine tune it.

    I'm talking about some ideals here though - like if you're trying to cut every fraction of a second you can. Whether that's worth the time and effort (and money) to do that on your average performance build is kind of a different subject


    Pro Stock chassis builder Jerry Bickel assures us, “there is no mystery to pinion angle.” Setting the pinion angle is the final step in driveline alignment. The goal is to create a straight line from the back of the crankshaft through the transmission, driveshaft, and the pinion of the differential—under load. Due to the tendency of the pinion to rise under load, some angle must be present at rest.



    This is just one of the articles that came up in google.

    http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/paint-body/91758/
    Last edited by Z88Z; 12-09-2014 at 05:16 AM.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z88Z View Post
    This is just one of the articles that came up in google.

    http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/paint-body/91758/
    Ill do some reading up on it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Monday I received the 2wd 46re overdrive from the ebay add

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/46RE-47RE-TR...26044631&rt=nc

    And here are some pics of that showed up...





    Its the same housing as the 1998 46re from dodge 1500.
    I contacted the seller and explained what the difference was from the pictures and what I got and her said he found the right one. He apologized for the shipping mistake and gave me a refund and is shipping the right one.

    The next big thing is that this is the housing only......
    Good thing I have both of the overdrive still. I think ill need parts from both to make it work.
    1998 5.9 limited grand cherokee, 196,000 miles, 360ci stock block, 46re stock tranny converted to RWD, 2WD front axle, Bosch 703 injectors, WJ brake swap. IRO dimpled and slotted rotors, K&N, MSD 6A, IAT relocate

  4. #29
    Member Mark 318 ita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z88Z View Post
    Basically, yes.

    I don't know if it's necessarily 'extreme' in stock height AWD but it's not really optimum either, and the higher it gets and the more the angles increase - the less optimum it gets.

    That's why some offroad vendors sell a "Tcase drop" which are basically blocks that go between the frame rails and the transmission crossmember to lower the trans and the back of the Tcase and reduce the driveline angle on vehicles with 'big' lifts - although I think these are more about reducing wear and tear on the driveshaft Ujoints than they are about recovering horsepower - but that's sort of the same thing if you see what I mean. It takes power to stress the UJs and that's power that's off the table more or less.


    I should say first that I'm not an expert on the subject by any means, so I can't really say what the percentages of loss are in relation to the degrees.

    With AWD and normal ride height - i. e. keeping any ability to go offroad etc, there's a limit to how much you can (or want) to correct it. I should also say it's not like it's some kind of terminal loss that absolutely kills AWD performance - just looking at the time slips of dedicated performance builds like Daryl/quikzj and Tim/NoTime shows you can overcome the "loss" to a large extent.

    This is more about what's considered an "ideal" set up for drag racing and performance in general, as related to 2WD.

    Whereas Theo is doing a dedicated 2WD performance build and therefore looking to put as much power to the ground as possible, he can theoretically build in a bit of "correction" while he's at it.





    Just google "degreeing driveline angles" and a lot of stuff comes up. Check it out.

    The basic theory is: Picture the straight line through your crank shaft and out through the transmission mainshaft and output shaft. Now picture the straight line that's your input gear into the rear differential.
    The closer the driveshaft is to keeping it a straight line between all that - the less power you're losing.

    BUT! - there's also a bit more theory behind this than just thinking about the straight line with the vehicle at rest.
    You also have to account for the suspension travel and the tendency for the axle to want to "wrap" or move up (slightly less of a problem with four link than with say, leaf springs or whatever) so you have to take into account exactly where in this transition from flex to normal plain you want it to be exact. (check any drag race vid and watch the way the rear end of the vehicle sinks and/or raises while it's moving from a stop, etc)

    That's where adjustable CAs can help put if you want to fine tune it.

    I'm talking about some ideals here though - like if you're trying to cut every fraction of a second you can. Whether that's worth the time and effort (and money) to do that on your average performance build is kind of a different subject


    Pro Stock chassis builder Jerry Bickel assures us, “there is no mystery to pinion angle.” Setting the pinion angle is the final step in driveline alignment. The goal is to create a straight line from the back of the crankshaft through the transmission, driveshaft, and the pinion of the differential—under load. Due to the tendency of the pinion to rise under load, some angle must be present at rest.



    This is just one of the articles that came up in google.

    http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/paint-body/91758/

    got it, thanks
    98 ZG 318 limited: np 242 swap, aussie locker, shift kit, optima red, 170lbs reduction, 5.9 vents, tcase skid, kn air filter, air ram, 1.7 HS RRs, SCT 93 oct tune, magnaflow muffler 12255, magnaflow hi-flo cat, spectre air hat, 2x52mm tb, 5.9 efan swap, ngk fr5-1 plugs, mopar perf wires, new cap 'n rot, maxxperf coil, iat relocation, roof lights, pirelli scorpions on masitaly 16x7 rims ET=0, ome HD coils +2",rubic exp +2"shocks, skyjacker ss, rubic exp adjustable front arms, jks rear+procomp front trackbar, prothane engine n tranny mounts, prothane sway bars bushings, drilled n slotted rotors, aeronautical front brake lines, purple led into front grill, hella h4s 100/55w, osarm h3s 55w.
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  5. #30
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    Hey Z88Z!
    From what i have read here and other posts is that the vss has more input than just the speedometer.
    http://mallcrawlin.com/forum/showthr...uirement/page2

    BUT! if i can get this 4th housing to work for me i can use a GPS speedo signal.
    I should be able to hook this up to the orange (signal) wire from the VSS and calibrate it to the factory PPM
    1998 5.9 limited grand cherokee, 196,000 miles, 360ci stock block, 46re stock tranny converted to RWD, 2WD front axle, Bosch 703 injectors, WJ brake swap. IRO dimpled and slotted rotors, K&N, MSD 6A, IAT relocate

  6. #31
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    Update!!

    Guess what showed up today!!







    1998 5.9 limited grand cherokee, 196,000 miles, 360ci stock block, 46re stock tranny converted to RWD, 2WD front axle, Bosch 703 injectors, WJ brake swap. IRO dimpled and slotted rotors, K&N, MSD 6A, IAT relocate

  7. #32
    Forum CONDUCTOR Man Z88Z's Avatar
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    But no shaft huh?

    Is the shaft for these extensions one piece or two? I'm hoping it's two and maybe you can fit your OBD2 OSS shaft in the front and the OBD1 VSS in the rear...

    Either that or possibly if it's one piece, one of the OBD1 vs OBD2 shafts could be machined to accept the sensor it doesn't have.


    In fact, maybe the Dodge shaft you have is already machined with a spot for the VSS gear to go on? Factories usually try to save money by making one part that fits more than one application, rather than having to make different runs of parts and shipping and storing them separately. Maybe, lol.

    Or contact that seller and see if he has a shaft available - and also see what vehicle it came out of so we can save someone else these headaches in the future.


    Or see if some tranny vendor has a shaft for it. I think any of these solutions is going to save time and trouble over modding some other system to use as a speedo input.

    I don't really understand the GPS thing. Is it it's own display, or does it operate the vehicle speedo? cuz where our speedo gets it's input over a databuss (filtered out from all the other gauge info) it seems like it would be hard to interface that.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z88Z View Post
    But no shaft huh?

    Is the shaft for these extensions one piece or two? I'm hoping it's two and maybe you can fit your OBD2 OSS shaft in the front and the OBD1 VSS in the rear...

    Either that or possibly if it's one piece, one of the OBD1 vs OBD2 shafts could be machined to accept the sensor it doesn't have.


    In fact, maybe the Dodge shaft you have is already machined with a spot for the VSS gear to go on? Factories usually try to save money by making one part that fits more than one application, rather than having to make different runs of parts and shipping and storing them separately. Maybe, lol.

    Or contact that seller and see if he has a shaft available - and also see what vehicle it came out of so we can save someone else these headaches in the future.


    Or see if some tranny vendor has a shaft for it. I think any of these solutions is going to save time and trouble over modding some other system to use as a speedo input.

    I don't really understand the GPS thing. Is it it's own display, or does it operate the vehicle speedo? cuz where our speedo gets it's input over a databuss (filtered out from all the other gauge info) it seems like it would be hard to interface that.
    Nope its just the housing

    Yes the Overdrive hub and the output are 2 parts.

    The 1996 shaft has not been machined for the vss ( i have pictures ill post)

    I asked the seller and he "thinks its from a 1996-1998 dodge 3/4 ton 5.9 van.. (i have a van here in the pick-n-pull near me and i might take a look next time im there)

    The GPS module has a wire that sends out a PPM (pules per mile) signal. The VSS has a orange wire that is the signal wire. So in theory you can program the GPS to send the VSS the right PPM data.
    1998 5.9 limited grand cherokee, 196,000 miles, 360ci stock block, 46re stock tranny converted to RWD, 2WD front axle, Bosch 703 injectors, WJ brake swap. IRO dimpled and slotted rotors, K&N, MSD 6A, IAT relocate

  9. #34
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    1995 46rh (Left) 1998 46re (Right)


    1995 46RH has a Fluid pump on the back of the Overdrive drum.
    I believe this is used to build pressure to engage the overdrive on the hydraulically controlled transmissions

    (46RE on the left)(46RH on the Right)

    1998 46rh overdrive shaft

    We removed all the pump and were left with this. Almost identical to the 1998

    1998 5.9 limited grand cherokee, 196,000 miles, 360ci stock block, 46re stock tranny converted to RWD, 2WD front axle, Bosch 703 injectors, WJ brake swap. IRO dimpled and slotted rotors, K&N, MSD 6A, IAT relocate

  10. #35
    Forum CONDUCTOR Man Z88Z's Avatar
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    So does that mean you can use the two different shafts and have the OSS and VSS - or you can't?

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z88Z View Post
    So does that mean you can use the two different shafts and have the OSS and VSS - or you can't?
    Yes I can!!




    (left is vss shaft) (right is 1996 shaft)



    I Put the 1995 shaft into the 1998 overdrive drum




    Kinda a bitch to drop the overdrive drum into the housing snap ring


    New clutches are back in


    Made it all this time without noticing that the guy I bought the housing from just snap the bolts off to take it apart
    1998 5.9 limited grand cherokee, 196,000 miles, 360ci stock block, 46re stock tranny converted to RWD, 2WD front axle, Bosch 703 injectors, WJ brake swap. IRO dimpled and slotted rotors, K&N, MSD 6A, IAT relocate

  12. #37
    Forum CONDUCTOR Man Z88Z's Avatar
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    So it's back together once you get the broken screws out? NICE!

    I'm anxious to see how the trans bracket mounting for this compares to our ZJs. Have you checked that yet?

    Since there were 2WD 44REs on the late 5.2s, and the 4WD 44RE and 46RE are a match as far as length and mounting points - I'm guessing this will line right up?

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z88Z View Post
    So it's back together once you get the broken screws out? NICE!

    I'm anxious to see how the trans bracket mounting for this compares to our ZJs. Have you checked that yet?

    Since there were 2WD 44REs on the late 5.2s, and the 4WD 44RE and 46RE are a match as far as length and mounting points - I'm guessing this will line right up?
    Take a look at this 4wd bulld. from what i hve mesured on my 4 overdrive housings and the 4WD on my 5.2 it should line up with the rear 2 bolt on the mount.

    http://mallcrawlin.com/forum/showthr...way!!!-writeup

    What i need to figure out next is the drive line length.

    Oh and we couldn't get the bolts out. we tried to drill them and from he rust and salt from the east coast it just destroyed 10 bits. and at this point I was worried bout messing up the 1 good case i have so we used silicone to hold it down.
    1998 5.9 limited grand cherokee, 196,000 miles, 360ci stock block, 46re stock tranny converted to RWD, 2WD front axle, Bosch 703 injectors, WJ brake swap. IRO dimpled and slotted rotors, K&N, MSD 6A, IAT relocate

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    You need cobalt steel bits to drill those bolts out. You can get them half the price of other places at Harbor Freight, and they're still good. Still not cheap, but very handy to have around for SS, Ti and hardened metals. They work MUCH better than HSS bits! - they WILL cut through where others fail, and last far longer... worth every penny. If the threads are screwed when you're done, just retap up a size.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by carlmon View Post
    You need cobalt steel bits to drill those bolts out. You can get them half the price of other places at Harbor Freight, and they're still good. Still not cheap, but very handy to have around for SS, Ti and hardened metals. They work MUCH better than HSS bits! - they WILL cut through where others fail, and last far longer... worth every penny. If the threads are screwed when you're done, just retap up a size.
    Right on. ill look for some next time im at HF.
    We were using my buddy's titanium bits and after we dulled/broke 4 he was not happy. So the silicone will work till i decide to have the trans/overdrive rebuilt down the line.
    1998 5.9 limited grand cherokee, 196,000 miles, 360ci stock block, 46re stock tranny converted to RWD, 2WD front axle, Bosch 703 injectors, WJ brake swap. IRO dimpled and slotted rotors, K&N, MSD 6A, IAT relocate

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    Im way behind on this but there were automatic 2wd ZJs. Why not look for how thats wired up? Sorry if Im bringing up something already asked.
    '98 Grand 5.9 "Black Pearl" totaled
    '98 Grand 5.9 "Eleanoir"
    "No Officer, all four tire tracks are mine, it WAS all wheel drive......yes ma'am Im aware this structure is normally used to 'park' cars"

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilbullie5.9 View Post
    Im way behind on this but there were automatic 2wd ZJs. Why not look for how thats wired up? Sorry if Im bringing up something already asked.
    The 2wd zjs use the 44re/rh and 42re/rh. the niners have a 46re and from what i have been told the overdrive housing bolts up to the 46re different than the 44re
    1998 5.9 limited grand cherokee, 196,000 miles, 360ci stock block, 46re stock tranny converted to RWD, 2WD front axle, Bosch 703 injectors, WJ brake swap. IRO dimpled and slotted rotors, K&N, MSD 6A, IAT relocate

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    got it.
    '98 Grand 5.9 "Black Pearl" totaled
    '98 Grand 5.9 "Eleanoir"
    "No Officer, all four tire tracks are mine, it WAS all wheel drive......yes ma'am Im aware this structure is normally used to 'park' cars"

  19. #44
    Forum CONDUCTOR Man Z88Z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilbullie5.9 View Post
    Im way behind on this but there were automatic 2wd ZJs. Why not look for how thats wired up? Sorry if Im bringing up something already asked.
    The problem was, first they shipped Theo a 46RH housing that didn't have the OSS/output speed sensor.

    Then they shipped him a Dodge 46RE housing - but from a vehicle that took it's VSS/speedo signal off the rear axle - so no VSS hole or worm gear.

    He finally got the right housing but it was gutted so he made it good with the OSS shaft from the 46RE and the VSS shaft from the 46RH. (nice work Theo!)


    We're still trying to identify the correct vehicle the housing came out of for future reference but as said above it's believed to be from a 3/4 ton Ram van. I don't know but that might be a 3500 series - that's if they rate the vans like the trucks

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    yeah I caught all that I was kind of just brainstorming after the fact. As if thats any damn good.
    '98 Grand 5.9 "Black Pearl" totaled
    '98 Grand 5.9 "Eleanoir"
    "No Officer, all four tire tracks are mine, it WAS all wheel drive......yes ma'am Im aware this structure is normally used to 'park' cars"

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z88Z View Post
    The problem was, first they shipped Theo a 46RH housing that didn't have the OSS/output speed sensor.

    Then they shipped him a Dodge 46RE housing - but from a vehicle that took it's VSS/speedo signal off the rear axle - so no VSS hole or worm gear.

    He finally got the right housing but it was gutted so he made it good with the OSS shaft from the 46RE and the VSS shaft from the 46RH. (nice work Theo!)
    Sums it up!
    and thank you!
    1998 5.9 limited grand cherokee, 196,000 miles, 360ci stock block, 46re stock tranny converted to RWD, 2WD front axle, Bosch 703 injectors, WJ brake swap. IRO dimpled and slotted rotors, K&N, MSD 6A, IAT relocate

  22. #47
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    A/C delete

    I live in Seattle and i think i have used my AC 1 or 2 times...... no reason to have it. just more weight I can take off.



    A/C refrigerant oil got on everything. BE PREPARED!








    I didn't have the Mopar tools for the AC fittings so we just cut the lines.





    1998 5.9 limited grand cherokee, 196,000 miles, 360ci stock block, 46re stock tranny converted to RWD, 2WD front axle, Bosch 703 injectors, WJ brake swap. IRO dimpled and slotted rotors, K&N, MSD 6A, IAT relocate

  23. #48
    Forum CONDUCTOR Man Z88Z's Avatar
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    Very nice, but are you going with the no-AC bracket eventually?

    If you're not running AC it makes for a much cleaner look.


    BTW they sell the AC line removal tools for like $5 - $10 a set. They're cheap plastic and might only last for a few removals but they do the job.

    How's it coming on the 2WD thing? Is it in and did the brackets line right up?

  24. #49
    Eddie MonaDeRio's Avatar
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    Yes, no-AC bracket and shorter belt if you are not going to put the AC back.

    http://thespeedfreaks.net/showthread...Delete-Bracket
    Last edited by MonaDeRio; 12-28-2014 at 08:59 AM.
    SCT X3. Custom cam. Crane gold race roller rockers. Fully ported 2.02 R/T heads.. Mike Leach Headers. Full 3" cat back exhaust. Custom full return fuel system. Aeromotive 340 in-tank fuel pump. Aeromotive dual port adjustable fuel regulator. Holley 2 x 52mm TB. High stall torque converter 2800 . 24# Bosch Ford Racing injectors. MSD ignition box and coil.

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  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z88Z View Post
    Very nice, but are you going with the no-AC bracket eventually?

    If you're not running AC it makes for a much cleaner look.


    BTW they sell the AC line removal tools for like $5 - $10 a set. They're cheap plastic and might only last for a few removals but they do the job.

    How's it coming on the 2WD thing? Is it in and did the brackets line right up?
    Good to know about the tools. Im using some of the parts from the niner to fix the ac on my 5.2

    I need to do some math under the jeep. i want to get the drive shaft built before I take the 4wd out.
    The 2wd case is 21" long. Any chance you know how long the overdrive and transfer case is?

    Im looking for the AC delete bracket at pick-n-pull but i didn't like how it looked with the ac bracket just empty.
    The bypass pulley was cheap and i like how it looks for now.
    Last edited by theopacific1; 12-28-2014 at 11:03 AM.
    1998 5.9 limited grand cherokee, 196,000 miles, 360ci stock block, 46re stock tranny converted to RWD, 2WD front axle, Bosch 703 injectors, WJ brake swap. IRO dimpled and slotted rotors, K&N, MSD 6A, IAT relocate

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