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  1. #1
    Member JGC403's Avatar
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    Project Orange Monster Part III

    I'm back. Its been a long time, I haven't had my Jeep in over a year, so I just have been lurking on here occasionally. I am now in Eastern Tennessee. Got my 1985 D-150 going, just need to re-do the exhaust to get rid of a drone and that one is basically done. I now have my Jeep back and I'm ready to get going on it. Last time the engine was just rebuilt by a shop because the head gasket let go from bad machine work from the first time I built it.

    There is a youtube show that I like called Roadkill. The next drag race they will be hosting is down in Tucson AZ.

    http://www.roadkill.com/events/roadkill-zip-tie-drags/

    My goal is to get my Jeep up and going and down to that race. I'm going all out with the Jeep this time, but its still going to be streetable. The fastest I have gone with my ZJ was 13.391 sec at 101.74 mph. So that is the time I'm trying to beat. Would love to be in the 11s.


    For those of you that don't remember my Jeep ZJ is a 1995, so OBD-I. I have done as much as I can with OBD-I and now I'm at the point its holding me back. So say goodbye to the Factory ECU. For now I'm going to be putting a Carb on because of the limited amount of time I have to get the Jeep going for this race. I'll be going back to Fuel Injection after the race and have more time for it. Probably a Holley Dominator System since it can support a coil-on-plug setup.

    I'll be re-doing the cooling system, removing the mechanical water pump in favor of an electric remote mount setup. Coolant will be plumbed into the center freeze plug, for more even temperatures from cylinder to cylinder.

    The 3" Skyjacker lift is coming off and I'll be cutting a set of stock coils to lower it 1". The 31" tires will be replaced with stock size drag radials.

    From the last time that I had the Jeep at the track I know the unibody twist and unloads the left front tire. Even with the stiff ass Skyjacker springs. So I have to stiffin the body, but I want to add the least amount of weight to the Jeep as possible. So is a rollcage enough or do I need to add those TNT frame stiffeners as well.

    I have my work cut out for me and not much time. I just gave you a peak of what I'm planning on doing so far the list is much longer. I'll keep adding more as I work on it.


    Last thing I'm going to say, this will be after the Roadkill race, so just a sneak peak......

    .....

    ....

    ...

    ..

    .

    Turbo
    Last edited by JGC403; 09-26-2017 at 01:20 PM.
    No replacement for displacement!

    1995 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo ZJ
    360 Stroker, 408c.i.


  2. #2
    Member Mark 318 ita's Avatar
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    dude! sounds super cool! keep us updated and upload video of the event!
    98 ZG 318 limited: np 242 swap, aussie locker, shift kit, optima red, 170lbs reduction, 5.9 vents, tcase skid, kn air filter, air ram, 1.7 HS RRs, SCT 93 oct tune, magnaflow muffler 12255, magnaflow hi-flo cat, spectre air hat, 2x52mm tb, 5.9 efan swap, ngk fr5-1 plugs, mopar perf wires, new cap 'n rot, maxxperf coil, iat relocation, roof lights, pirelli scorpions on masitaly 16x7 rims ET=0, ome HD coils +2",rubic exp +2"shocks, skyjacker ss, rubic exp adjustable front arms, jks rear+procomp front trackbar, prothane engine n tranny mounts, prothane sway bars bushings, drilled n slotted rotors, aeronautical front brake lines, purple led into front grill, hella h4s 100/55w, osarm h3s 55w.
    my channel
    https://www.youtube.com/TommyVercettism/videos

  3. #3
    Member JGC403's Avatar
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    One problem down, transmission kickdown linkage. Lokar actually makes one that goes between a carb and the A518/46RH transmission.
    part#: KDP-2518HT
    No replacement for displacement!

    1995 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo ZJ
    360 Stroker, 408c.i.


  4. #4
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    You might want to look at the frame stiffeners from DB Metalworx. They have them to cover the entire frame rail length, and I don't think TNT does. DB's are also a little thinner, so a little lighter for racejeeps. I haven't decided if I'm going to get their full kit, or just the front rails kit, but at least the front when my new motor goes in.
    You're running 4WD, right? My solution for front left wheel spin was to put a TrueTrac LSD in the front DA-30 - works great, and does a lot more to prevent wheel spin than any frame reinforcement or spring changes.
    Interesting notion to run electric water pump to the side of the block - how do you have it flowing from there? I ported only the block-to-head coolant holes at the rear of the engine, and got a high-flow (Flowkooler) mechanical pump. I know some have tapped fittings into the rear of the intake for bypass hoses, also to encourage more flow to the rear.

    Anyway, very glad you're back on it, and back on here!
    Last edited by carlmon; 09-27-2017 at 11:46 AM.

  5. #5
    Member JGC403's Avatar
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    I haven't heard of that company for frame stiffeners, but i will take a look.

    Yea, I'm keeping it 4WD. I had planned on putting a LSD in the front axle, that will help I'm sure. But the body twisting is still unloading that front left tire. The LSD would keep it from just spinning the left tire and send power to the right tire, but I still want to stiffen the front end. I'm going to put in some J-bars and see how well that stiffens up the front end.

    The electric pump is a pretty slick setup. The electric pump doesn't run at full volume all of the time. The controller will send more power to the pump as the engine warms up and gets to the temperature range that you want it. So the thermostat is removed and I think a restrictor is put in its place. So I can remove the bypass hose and plug that hole in the intake manifold.
    The path of the coolant would be to come out of the lower radiator hose and into the electric pump come out of the pump and split into 2 tubes these would go into the center freeze plug in each side of the block. I'm going to drill and tap the back of the intake manifold for 2 lines that will go to the base of the water neck. The rest of the water will flow its normal route into the front of the intake manifold. Then through the restrictor into the water neck and into the top of the radiator.

    Switching to the electric water pump should free up some horsepower, not much about 4 horsepower and 6 lb-ft of torque, but the cool thing is you can keep the electric pump and fans going to help cool the engine between rounds.
    No replacement for displacement!

    1995 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo ZJ
    360 Stroker, 408c.i.


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    Sounds like a good setup - better than the ones that just replace the mechanical pump with electrical, and use the standard flow routing. Who makes it?

    I'm curious to hear your thoughts on frame stiffeners. I was thinking reinforcing the front rails was most important, but I don't really know.

    Here are links to the DB stiffeners - full set or front rails only:
    http://www.dbmetalworx.com/4x4-produ...set/p/62352809
    http://www.dbmetalworx.com/4x4-produ...ers/p/62352810

  7. #7
    Member JGC403's Avatar
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    Davies Craig water pump. An Australian company.

    http://daviescraig.com.au/product/ew...combo-12v-8970

    I'll see what I can do when I get to the frame stiffeners. I have an idea of how to measure the chassis stiffness and as we weld in different parts we can re-measure and see if it does anything or just adds weight.
    I just remember the TNT stiffeners and they were just in the middle section of the Jeep. So these other ones that go all the way to the front bumper are a new concept to me, I'm not sure what to think of them yet.


    Anyone know if the A500/42RH was ever in a Grand Cherokee behind a V8? If I remember correctly the 46RH was used behind the 318 until 1996 when they switched to the RE transmissions. Then they used the 42RE behind some 318s in the Grand Cherokees. So there are no 42RH transmissions with the starter on the correct side.
    Last edited by JGC403; 09-29-2017 at 07:33 PM.
    No replacement for displacement!

    1995 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo ZJ
    360 Stroker, 408c.i.


  8. #8
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    I think the center stiffeners like TNT's are primarily for mounting things like sliders, and to reduce body twist with extreme articulation for crawling, not so much torque management. Seems to me stiffening the front on a race jeep, especially with a high-torque stroked and blown motor, would be the most important place for stiffeners.

    Not the 42RH, but I think in only '93 the 46RH came with all 5.2's, if Wikipedia is to be believed. Why did you want the 42RH? Of course you could run the starter on the wrong side - it's been done.

  9. #9
    Member JGC403's Avatar
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    The 42RH has the lower ratio gear set, a bolt in sprag, and consumes less power and It can be built to handle just as much power as the 46RH.
    No replacement for displacement!

    1995 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo ZJ
    360 Stroker, 408c.i.


  10. #10
    Forum CONDUCTOR Man Z88Z's Avatar
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    Glad to see this thing is getting the love again!

    Sounds like a heckuva plan.


    On the tranny thing...

    Yes, 46RH behind the 5.2 93 to 95 I'm pretty sure. Then it was the 44RE for the 5.2s and in 98 the 46RE for the niners.

    So that kind of limits things but there might be some options maybe.

    Was the 42RH ever used behind a Dodge V8 or maybe the 3.9 Dodge motor? That would give you the bolt pattern, but then you have the wrong side starter issue.

    Now, depending on how you were thinking of setting up the turbo and what kind of exhaust setup you were thinking of - that left side starter could be less of an issue.
    (That's if the 42/44 was used behind compatible Dodges. I just did some googling and it looks like it was used on some lighter duty stuff, but the info I found was so generic that it didn't help pin it down)


    Another thought if you want to stay with the Jeep-side starter....

    You'd have to ask Martin Saine or another tranny guy to be sure, but I'm betting the Jeep 44RE case could be stuffed with RH components. I don't know how easily or what would be involved but I doubt they changed the case very much internally.


    FWIW I really like the 44RE on my relatively stock but OBD2 5.9 93. I like the gearing a lot better for DDing.


    On the chassis thing I don't have too much to add but there's also the welding all the unibody rails idea. Just read in one of the Mopar mags how one of the dirt track guys did that on his street car build to stiffen it up.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z88Z View Post
    You'd have to ask Martin Saine or another tranny guy to be sure, but I'm betting the Jeep 44RE case could be stuffed with RH components. I don't know how easily or what would be involved but I doubt they changed the case very much internally.
    I was wondering this as well. Except the thing I read said the 46RH was used ONLY in 93, switching to 44RE in 94-98 on all 5.2s, and I believe everything I read on the internet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Z88Z View Post
    On the chassis thing I don't have too much to add but there's also the welding all the unibody rails idea. Just read in one of the Mopar mags how one of the dirt track guys did that on his street car build to stiffen it up.
    Are you talking about doing full-bead welding on all the seams?
    Looking for info on this I came across something I found previously and promptly forgot, about filling the unibody cavities with an expanding urethane foam. It's a light way to stiffen, and completely seals them from water entry (as long as they're dry when you fill them!). Of course you would have to do any planned welding first...
    I bought the DB Metalworx front frame stiffeners, and they're pretty heavy. It's 10 gauge (0.14") steel (TNT uses even heavier 8 gauge 0.17"). I haven't measured, but I'm guessing the DBM is about 3x thicker than the rail sheet. I'd actually like to have something lighter, maybe 14 gauge, and do the full length for about the same weight as the fronts only. DBM has the patterns... maybe they would be willing to make a custom set (or sets, if anyone else would want in!).
    There's also discussion as to whether full bead or stitch welding for attaching stiffeners is better - I think the best would be to clean and glue the entire surface, and stitch-weld the edges and cut-outs.

  12. #12
    Forum CONDUCTOR Man Z88Z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carlmon View Post
    I was wondering this as well. Except the thing I read said the 46RH was used ONLY in 93, switching to 44RE in 94-98 on all 5.2s, and I believe everything I read on the internet.

    Are you talking about doing full-bead welding on all the seams?....


    I don't know what I'm talking about!

    As in I haven't done it before, but I'm remembering Rick/Ringwraith also suggested "stitch welding" in one of his performance tip threads.

    The article I was referring to is a 66 Charger build. Budget Bruiser page 70 in Dec 2017 Mopar Muscle.

    "Mike applied one of his favorite tricks learned from the dirt track racing world and welded the pinch welds and some body seams solid, as well as the front crossmember to eliminate flex points.
    According to Mike you'd be surprised at how much more rigid and old unibody gets when it's welded solid"



    On the tranny thing - ya, when I looked it up the other day the info didn't seem all that reliable in terms of years and applications, so I kinda gave up. lol.

    I really only know the first and last year ZJs and I know a lot of little changes occurred in the middle years - but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say the change from 46RH to 44RE was a really big change and since the RE is electrically controlled it probably did not happen until the whole electrical system changed with the OBD2 upgrade which I'm 93.6% sure happened for the 96 model year.

    I did part out a 94 5.2 and I'm going to say with 99.2% surety that it had the 46RH.
    Pretty sure the "93 only" tranny thing applies to that other trans that was only used on the 4.0s and was I believe the only ZJ trans to have a TCU? I think that was the AW4 or something like that?


    So these other boxes are all either 904 or 727 based, as us old people like to say. Younger people might go with 500/518 or whatever but it's the same thing.

    Chrysler had a smaller cased box for lighter duty and a bigger case box for heavier duty. The 44RE is the smaller box based on the 904, the 46RH and RE are 727 based.

    So I believe the 42 is a 904 based tranny as is the 44 and that second number (2 vs 4) is torque handling capability, so I guess the important part is that the cases fit the engine/body/Tcase application as the actual strength part of it will be handled during the rebuild.


    Found a thread on Dodgeforum about the swap on a Ram where people say the 42 will work.

    https://dodgeforum.com/forum/dodge-c...e-shudder.html


    However, if you want to stay with the Jeep side starter I'd still say look into the Jeep 44RE with RH components installed

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    Quote Originally Posted by Z88Z View Post
    However, if you want to stay with the Jeep side starter I'd still say look into the Jeep 44RE with RH components installed
    Yeah, if it's a simple guts swap, Jeep 44RE's are all over the place. I guess the 46RH would also be 904 based? I think we can be confident that any 93 V8 ZJ would have the 46RH, so that would be available as well... just not in every junk yard.

    Came across another unibody stiffening method the rally guys use called 'double skinning', where they buy replacement body panels for key areas, like A-pillars, rocker panels, etc., and weld them over the existing metal - a double skin. Of course doubling the thickness more than doubles the stiffness. Next time a local niner is parted out I may go to town on it with a sawsall, or chase down some new replacement panels. I'd stick to areas underneath, and the rocker panels, since those are covered with plastic anyway.

  14. #14
    Forum CONDUCTOR Man Z88Z's Avatar
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    No, the 46s are 727 based. Larger case and all that.

    44 is 904 based, and I'm (totally, lol) guessing the 42 is the same case, just made to different strength specs.

    Like I said, in spite of the confusing info found online I'm pretty sure it's RHs behind the 93 to 95 5.2s, and 44RE from 96 to 98, and of course the 46RE for the 5.9s in 98.

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    Member JGC403's Avatar
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    Trying to work on 3 projects at a time. I have a real bad drone on my truck and I'm re-doing the exhaust to try and eliminate that. Bought what I hope is the rest of the parts to finish that.

    Pulled the water pump and intake manifold off of the 408. I have to take the manifold to a machine shop to have them mill off some chunks of metal that are in the way of the rear water passages that I am adding. Found 5 of the 8 plugs I need to plug the fuel injector holes in the intake manifold. Have to go pick-up the other 3 tomorrow.
    Since I'm re-routing how the coolant flows through my motor, I was looking for plugs to plug the 1&1/16" holes in the timing chain cover. But it seems to be an oddball size, so I think I'll have the machine shop open it up to 1&1/8" and leave a step so the plug can't go into the motor.

    We recently brought the DeSoto down from PA and now we are trying to get that running again. The carb rebuild kit should be here today or tomorrow, so I got to pull that and rebuild it.

    So after this initial waiting on parts, hopefully I can get stuff coming in that there is always something to work on and I'm not just waiting on parts.
    No replacement for displacement!

    1995 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo ZJ
    360 Stroker, 408c.i.


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    Z you are correct 46 up are 727 based and 44 down are 904 based.

    Well the plugs are different on the RH vs RE transmissions, but I'm not sure if they changed the case or not to fit the different RE plug.

    Z, I know how much you like wiring, lol. When you rewired your OBD-I jeep for OBD-II do you remember how much of the OBD-I gauge cluster would work on its own without the PCM? I know the temp sensor has its own sensor, so that is at least one gauge that probably doesn't go through the PCM and maybe the gas gauge?
    No replacement for displacement!

    1995 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo ZJ
    360 Stroker, 408c.i.


  17. #17
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    I'm changing up the cooling system a bit. After looking closely at all of the components I would need, to do what I wanted to do with the Davies Craig water pump I would need a couple custom pieces. I'm trying to keep that to a minimum to keeping cost down and to make it easier for someone else to replicate if they wanted. Plus after doing more research on cooling I want to keep the coolant moving as quick as possible through the engine to minimize hot spots and steam pockets. How the Davies Craig water pump operates is an interesting concept but I don't want to experiment with it on this engine.

    So I'm going with a Meziere water pump, this will bolt into the stock location of the mechanical pump. But I'm still plumbing the coolant into the center freeze plug in the side of the block.
    No replacement for displacement!

    1995 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo ZJ
    360 Stroker, 408c.i.


  18. #18
    Forum CONDUCTOR Man Z88Z's Avatar
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    Hmmm, I always take a million pics of thing while I'm doing them, yet when I go to look for certain things they aren't in any of my pics.

    Like the RH plug thing for example

    My RHs are long gone. I looked through my pics and even did image searches and I didn't come up with anything that clearly showed what plugs the RHs have and can't remember that for the life of me.

    There's lockup and OD so they must have some kind of plugs. I'd assume they also have something for output shaft speed (on the trans itself, not the vehicle speed sensor) and/or some internal sensors other than the Neutral safety switch - but I wouldn't be surprised at all if I'm wrong on either or both of those.

    I'd say the one thing working in your favor is the 44RE would at least have way more wiring through it's plugs than an RH, so at worst you might have to get creative and solder some of the RH wiring to go through the RE plug. If there's any extra plugs on the RE that the RH doesn't use - I guess you'd just trim the wiring off it and leave it in place as a seal?

    If you decide to go with the Dodge left side starter 42/44RH - try and get the bracket for the shift cable bracket that goes on the bell housing from the Dodge. Our ZJ shifter brackets are tighter to the bell since they don't have to go around a starter bulge, and they don't really have the proper clearance and angle for the shifter cable.
    Well that's what I ran into on my 46RE vs 727 swap. Mine works but it's a bit too tight so I'll be tracking down the Dodge bracket. The 904 based stuff might be better or worse than the 727 based stuff.


    My Meziere seems to be okay - but it really hasn't been put to any kind of test yet. I did find it really helps if you remember to turn it on

    I went with a manual switch on mine but I'm going to be picking up the temp sensors and wiring to have it run on demand with the ignition on.

    The idea behind the manual switch was to have the ability to run the water pump with the vehicle stationary and the motor and ignition off for cool down between runs at the drags. That's to be combined with a third relay so the Efan would be running too.

    Ultimately it would be getting a dual battery set and the Epump and Efan would only be running off one battery.

    Painless has a pretty slick dual battery setup with a built in "smart" isolator and IIRC the isolation set up works to connect or disconnect the second battery both on an "as needed" basis and also off a manual switch.

    It's a fairly pricey set up but it probably wouldn't be that hard to duplicate it for less if you dropped the "smart" part of it. (I think the dual batt setup is under Jeep Wrangler on the Painless site)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Z88Z View Post
    Painless has a pretty slick dual battery setup with a built in "smart" isolator and IIRC the isolation set up works to connect or disconnect the second battery both on an "as needed" basis and also off a manual switch.

    It's a fairly pricey set up but it probably wouldn't be that hard to duplicate it for less if you dropped the "smart" part of it. (I think the dual batt setup is under Jeep Wrangler on the Painless site)
    Don't know how much the "Painless" thing is, but you might want to look at marine options where it's more common. I have a 'smart' isolator in my boat - no switches or anything. I think it was about $150.

  20. #20
    Forum CONDUCTOR Man Z88Z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carlmon View Post
    Don't know how much the "Painless" thing is, but you might want to look at marine options where it's more common. I have a 'smart' isolator in my boat - no switches or anything. I think it was about $150.
    Good stuff.

    Ya that makes sense. I figured it could be done a lot cheaper and I wasn't even thinking of marine applications.

    In fact Painless Performance actually has a kit with just the wiring that's around $191. Not cheap but not crazy either.


    The one I was thinking of was a super fancy deal that actually had a metal battery tray for the dual batteries with the isolator and relays built right onto it, but no need to get that fancy. Plus it wasn't built for a cover or anything so it wouldn't have been good for interior mounting.

    I just looked at their site and I can't find it, but I was pretty sure it was Painless. They do have some great stuff though.

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